OzzieKez
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Reged: 21/06/2008
Posts: 2759
Loc: Queensland, Australia
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The thing is that both the Israelis and the Palestinians had the same father ......literally.
Israel itself is used as a kind of Jewish finishing school. It is considered a duty - particularly by Orthodox Jews to send their children for a year's stint on a Kibbutz. I have met Sabra ....who detest this practice and do not consider themselves to be "cut from the same cloth"...... as the wealthy Jews who do this.
So there are divisions of thought among the Jewish people as well. The Jewish politician - who's name escapes me - who was assassinated fairly recently was considered too moderate! These people are fuelled by donations from Zionists all over the world who don't actually have to live with the situation.
So very sad for all those caught in the cross-fire. There were figures released recently; Israel had lost 3 civilians - The Palestinians - 380........ Why did the USA decline to vote in the recent UN security vote for condemnation?....Shabott Shalom?
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chattycathy
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Reged: 09/01/2008
Posts: 7783
Loc: Beside the seaside
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Morning girls,I really admire you all for your knowledge on this kind of thing...I'm really not up on whats happening as I tend to bury my head sometimes...I'm not stupid as I know awful things happen all over the world & I do try to read & listen,my take on things are...a lot of lives have been lost...it doesnt matter to me how it happened or why it happened because if you really think about it life is life...
Bless them who through Israel/Palestine problems who has lost anyone...
Cathy...
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'It's never too late to have a happy childhood.'
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Mayday
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Reged: 19/01/2008
Posts: 2046
Loc: Gloucestershire/cotswolds
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Gosh!!! I have just had an 'in-depth' skype conversation with my son(Political scientist/Middle eastern studies)who is teaching in a university in America. I have put so many questions to him and got lots of answers but as he says....'There is no quick easy straightforward way to explain all the politics and processes that have led us to where we are' The situation as is certainly goes a long way back but our British government of the time is not blameless for the muddle as we apparently'left them to it' after the second world war even though it was plain that the Palestinians were not accepting the Jewish settlement on what they considered (and had been)their land.
As to any reasoned settlement now? Apparently what happens is that the 'reasonable' elements from both sides will sit down and talk but when, any settlement seems near, the extremeist factions on either side will commit an atrocity to stir things up again and prevent a peace settlement. So basically it is down to the extremists on both sides keeping the warring going.
It is so complex though as to be beyond explanation here. So many 'outside interests' have been involved too...I wouldn't know where to start. It needs study to degree standard to understand it all.
Certainly It leaves me sitting firmly on the fence as to the rights and wrongs. Both sides have legitimate rights and share equal wrongs. They are not even 'monocultures'. There are factions within each 'state'. On a humanitarian scale though one has to feel that the Israelis are being very heavy handed....with the benefit of weaponry supplied mainly by America.
Well....I don't know that this has added anything to 'our' discussion but it has helped me to realise why we are a very long way from any setttlement yet.....if ever.
Oil and Trade routes came into it somewhere too....surprise surprise!!
Off to bed now. Head reeling. Tomorrow's another day!!
Night Night all!
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I may not be rich or famous but my Grandchildren ARE Priceless !!
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expatK
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Reged: 18/01/2008
Posts: 1229
Loc: Frankfurt,Germany
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I have come into this thread rather late but I am very interested in this subject- can't claim to understand it in all its enormous complexities but have always tried to keep up with what happens there.
Like everything else in life, opinions are often tainted by personal experience. OH's oldest and closest friend is Jewish and he, and his family, feel very, very strongly about it.
But also, some years ago we used to put up foreign students for the university where we lived.. they were all European but once we were asked to put up a Palestinian guy. We were a bit taken aback but agreed to do it. He stayed with us for a year altogether, and we are still in touch. What a lovely, gentle guy he is. He will always have a special place in our hearts... the conditions in which he has to live are appalling. We do tend to forget that most people -everywhere- just want to get on with their daily lives and 'mind their own business'... and he is just the same. The restrictions the Israelis impose on the Palestinians even in times of 'relative' stability are just unfathomable to us. He and his family tried so hard to leave and emigrate to a peaceful country, but it seems that nobody wants them! And this is a peaceful guy, who speaks excellent English, is very presentable, has volunteered with the UN and has a Masters degree in International Business Law from a UK university!!!
Our Jewish friends were incensed when they knew we were accomodating a Palestinian student. They are the most liberal, free-thinking and laid-back people, but this is the one thing we can not see eye-to-eye on. After a 40 year really close friendship, where we have been through thick and thin together, this shocked me to the core. It's beyond sad....
I can't see how it will ever end- particularly when both sides still insist on an eye for an eye...
I so wish the Palestinians had not voted in Hamas- I think a lot of them do, too- but they promised the people so much, and after the corruption of Arafat, they wanted to believe them.....
We really are lucky to live in our countries, it's good to keep reminding ourselves that we mustn't take our freedoms for granted.
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chilla
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Reged: 05/09/2008
Posts: 5916
Loc: runcorn
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Good to hear some points mad from personal experience - and unfortunately only seems to compound the belief that this 'war' will run and run.
No matter where you go in the world, most people want the same thing - the chance to have a job, bring their families up in safety, have a home, have friends and family, enjoy the social rituals, a decent stndard of living.
But there will always be people firmly entrenched in their views and for some disappointing reason, they are the ones that either get their mitts on the armaments or rise to the top through either promising the world or military force. Think of all the fruitcakes throughout this century alone and tell me that any one of us couldn't have done better.
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I have the talent of single-minded determination and foc....hey, look, dog!
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Mollymandy
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Reged: 01/08/2008
Posts: 1511
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I think one of the things which is most perplexing is that Israel dropped leaflets saying that the bombing was going to escalate and for civilians to move to a safer place. Seeing as though there is no "safe" place in Gaza, borders are closed, sea routes are blocked - where exactly are normal peace loving peoples to go? Perhaps there should be a mass evacuation for women, children, and old people and then the military factions can just flatten the country.
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cupcake
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Reged: 15/02/2008
Posts: 5982
Loc: On top of the world!!
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Can someone explain the West Bank to me? Is that where the Palestinians went, apart from those who found themselves in Gaza, when Israel was created? Or have I got that completely wrong?
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Mollymandy
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Reged: 01/08/2008
Posts: 1511
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You should find answers to all questions on the area in the attached Guardian link...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/israelandthepalestinians
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Chickadee
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Reged: 28/03/2008
Posts: 4027
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I have just read this thread - I avoided it until now because I was afraid it might be rather simplistic - how wrong can I get!!! Chilla, especially, you've done an amazing job of explaining this horrendously complex situation.
If I could add a couple of thoughts. The area that is now Israel, Gaza and the West Bank has been owned by many different invaders over many thousands of years. It has no single historic ownership, but it has been the homeland to the semitic peoples from whom both Israelis and Palestinians are descended. (I don't think I would take the story of Abraham too literally myself). The fact is that no-one can claim right of ownership except through possession. As others have pointed out, the State of Israel has always been under threat - I rmemeber the 6 day war well, and the reaction of most of the media and the western countries at that time was that Israel had acted justifiably in self defence. The Arab nations took a different view, particularly when Israel refused to surrender the land it had occupied.
Cuppy, the West Bank is territory on the west bank of the river Jordan . To the west, north, and south the West Bank shares borders with state of Israel. To the east, across the Jordan River, is Jordan. Since 1967 most of the West Bank has been under Israeli military occupation.
From 1948 until 1967, the area was under Jordanian rule, but Jordan's claim was never recognized by the international community, with the exception of the United Kingdom. The West Bank was captured by Israel during the Six-Day War in June, 1967. Most of the residents are Arabs, although a large number of Israeli settlements have been built in the region since 1967. I believe it has a degree of autonomy, apart form East Jerusalem, which was anenexed into Israel.
One factor in all this which has not been mentioned in relation to the US is the importance of Jewish Americans demographically and economically. US politicians are constrained not only because of the "Born again christian" lobby, but also because there are over 6 million Jews in the United States - possibly as much as a third of the world's Jewish population. Although only a small percentage of the total US population, they are politically and economically a very pwoerful force.
Finally there are different parties in Israel. Yitzak Rabin was the leader assassinated in 1995, I think, not long after he had agreed the Oslo Accords and met Yasser Arafat.He was murdered by a right wing Israeli who saw his moves towards peace as dangerous.
Gosh, sorry - I have gone on rather a lot...
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cupcake
member
Reged: 15/02/2008
Posts: 5982
Loc: On top of the world!!
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Thanks! Every little helps!!
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issi
member
Reged: 30/09/2007
Posts: 3733
Loc: London
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Just a small point - Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East. This is important because where tyrants rule you see such poor countries and living standards.
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cupcake
member
Reged: 15/02/2008
Posts: 5982
Loc: On top of the world!!
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yes. I see your point. I think it is that Palestine would be a poor country with terrible living standards even if Israel were nowhere near them, because of their rulers.
Have I understood correctly?
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chattycathy
member
Reged: 09/01/2008
Posts: 7783
Loc: Beside the seaside
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Do you work for Tesco Cuppy!lol! 
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'It's never too late to have a happy childhood.'
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cupcake
member
Reged: 15/02/2008
Posts: 5982
Loc: On top of the world!!
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Do Tesco have stores in Palestine and Israel Cathy???
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chilla
member
Reged: 05/09/2008
Posts: 5916
Loc: runcorn
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Sad anorak fact person here - the UN world food programme needs another $9 million to feed people in Gaza since the escalation in the fighting.
I don't know how porous the border is with Egypt, but the Palestinians are not manufacturing those rockets by themselve. Therefore one would presume that it is possible for some of the Palestinians to be able to exit, though of course they would be leaving with nothing and dependent on charity of the new host nation.
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I have the talent of single-minded determination and foc....hey, look, dog!
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Chickadee
member
Reged: 28/03/2008
Posts: 4027
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As I understand it, Chilla, the purpose of the tunnels between Gaza and Egypt is to enable weapons to be brought in. Presumably they can't be used to evacuate the area because it would take too long, not be safe for children or the frail,not be acceptable to Egypt (who presumably don't want Palestinian refugees) and would prevent the tunnels being used for their primary purpose, the importation of weapons.
As Mayday has pointed out, those who supply arms carry a burden of responsibility.
Like you, I feel there are so many wrongs on both sides over so many years that it is imposssible to say who is right or who is wrong - and apportioning blame achieves nothing. I've just dug out an old book of mine which says "The prospect of further Arab-Israeli wars is a deeply ominous one for world peace as a whole....It may not be irrelevant to recall biblical prophecy and remember tht Armageddon is situated in what is today Israel." That was written in 1982, at a time when there seemed a very real possibility that the war would lead to superpower involvement and nuclear warfare.
The situation has evolved differently from that forecast, but we are all involved in it because it has fuelled the tensions between the Islamic world and the West and provided a rallying point for terrorism.
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Chickadee
member
Reged: 28/03/2008
Posts: 4027
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As I understand it, Chilla, the purpose of the tunnels between Gaza and Egypt is to enable weapons to be brought in. Presumably they can't be used to evacuate the area because it would take too long, not be safe for children or the frail,not be acceptable to Egypt (who presumably don't want Palestinian refugees) and would prevent the tunnels being used for their primary purpose, the importation of weapons.
As Mayday has pointed out, those who supply arms carry a heavy responsibility.
Like you, I feel there are so many wrongs on both sides over so many years that it is imposssible to say who is right or who is wrong - and apportioning blame achieves nothing. I've just dug out an old book of mine which says "The prospect of further Arab-Israeli wars is a deeply ominous one for world peace as a whole....It may not be irrelevant to recall biblical prophecy and remember tht Armageddon is situated in what is today Israel." That was written in 1982, at a time when there seemed a very real possibility that the war would lead to superpower involvement and nuclear warfare.
The situation has evolved differently from that forecast, but we are all involved in it because it has fuelled the tensions between the Islamic world and the West and provided a rallying point for terrorism. There can be no doubt that a great wrong was done to the Palestinian people, but because Europe was so wrapped up in its own post war turmoil, the US was entirely focused on the Cold War and very anti anything it saw as smacking of colonialism, the situation was left to fester until it has become apparently beyond healing unless there can be a much greater degree of trust and good will than at present.
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cupcake
member
Reged: 15/02/2008
Posts: 5982
Loc: On top of the world!!
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This is all very heavy stuff. Doesn't bode well for any of us really does it.
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Mayday
member
Reged: 19/01/2008
Posts: 2046
Loc: Gloucestershire/cotswolds
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Hi Chick. Thanks for giving more detail than I was able to put into a post!!Yatzik Rabin's assasination was one of the instances of when a peace treaty is almost fixed.....an extremist (from either side) will come along and commit an atrocity. Basically the extremists do not want peace!Because neither side will accept the existance of the other.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the importance of Jerusalem to the Muslims.One of their holiest miracles(when Mohammed was taken up to Heaven)took place at 'The Dome of The Rock'So they have as much claim to some presence there as the Jews and the Christions.
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I may not be rich or famous but my Grandchildren ARE Priceless !!
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BEL
member
Reged: 21/02/2008
Posts: 2480
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The Muslims do have a presence on 'the Dome of the Rock' they have the Al-Aqsa Mosque on the Temple Mount where it is belived Abraham nearly sacrificed Isaac....Don't mention Rocks,whether in the East or West (northern rock) cause problems!!!!
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