nowcemsi
member
Reged: 24/06/2008
Posts: 462
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I asked a friend on another forum to explain to me what was going on: her words not mine:
there are many things you dont know about gaza . Gaza was a big ghetto crying for help .
Yes the Illegal Settlers have left in 2005 BUT ALL the exits of Gaza have been Shut firmly and Israel has the keys . Rafah on egypt side is also Locked up on Israel recommendations
- Gaza fishermen are daily targeted sometimes killed by Israeli gunships
Gaza can not import or export anything because the gates are open once or twice a month when it suits israel s mood . so their produce most of the time rots (vegetables , fruits , flowers they were hoping to send to europe )
People in gaza can not travel freely for work , study , medical treatment only for extreme cases ( 300 have been killed in the last 6 months because of that )
there is no electricty , there is no fuel (they buy it from israel cant buy it from anyone else )
there is a lack of water .
the sewage system is about to burst and sinks homes since there is no electricy to clean it
AID has stopped totally for the last 2 Years , people work with NO Salaries for 2 years because people voted for hamas . so bills are unpaid and people have sold
everything they owned to survive .
some people are burning their furniture to keep warm
the Bakeries are out of flour , and people are linning up outside for hours to get some bread .
the UNRWA lack funds (and Arabs have been warned by America not to help or their banks will be on a red list ) and Oxfam says the situation is catastrophic
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OzzieKez
member
Reged: 21/06/2008
Posts: 2759
Loc: Queensland, Australia
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Hi Cuppy,
Just woken up....be gentle with me.
Bedouins were/ are nomads who live a life in which they have a "range" of living sites. They herd their animals and, I guess, wander the desert.
I suppose my viewpoint on this is basically, I am not a Christian. I believe that Abraham hearing God's voice, after not eating or sleeping ......after slitting the throats of his flock etc....being told by god 'To your descendants I give this land,from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites' ........was a schizophrenic episode. I'd like to see how far he'd get with that one today...... There's also the story that in their 80's he and his wife Sarah were told 'by "God" that 'I give you and your descendants all the land of Canaan - an everlasting possession!'. When a child was not forthcoming Sarah ordered her slave Hagar to lie with her husband and bear him a child. Mission accomplished, Ishmael.....then Sarah (90) discovers she is pregnant. Abraham by this time is 100. So Sarah orders Hagar and her child to be cast out to the desert. This is thought to be the origins of the Bedouins. I would have to say that was a very unkind act from people professing to be bearers of God's word. Isaac is born.
To which lot of descendants did "God" refer?
Religion is the thing that it is impossible to overcome. Therein lies my belief that Israel should not exist....why weren't the Jews sent back to their countries of origin? I doubt anybody will agree with me but it will make no difference the whole conflict is beyond reason now............
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issi
member
Reged: 30/09/2007
Posts: 3733
Loc: London
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I don't want to be too simplistic about this but if we had a neighbouring country intent on destroying us we would look very badly at a government who did not go in hard. The tragedy is in the suffering of the people on both sides but I believe I have got it right in that if there was a compromise Israel would have reached it a long time ago. Israel is the only "westernised" nation in the Middle East and I fear it may be the only barrier between the forces that hate the west and the rest of us.
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OzzieKez
member
Reged: 21/06/2008
Posts: 2759
Loc: Queensland, Australia
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That's a scary thought Issi!
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JustJules
member
Reged: 10/03/2008
Posts: 324
Loc: Lancashire
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That's exactly what I know of the situation Nowcemsi but couldn't put it into words properly yesterday and that is precisly why nearly all the news seems to be biased towards Israel being in the wrong.
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cupcake
member
Reged: 15/02/2008
Posts: 5982
Loc: On top of the world!!
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Quote:
all the news seems to be biased towards Israel being in the wrong.
Sorry. This has confused me again.
Can you explain what you mean about the news being biased? IS Israel in the wrong? Or is Palestine? Or is it always just going to be just anyone's opinion one way or the other?
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chilla
member
Reged: 05/09/2008
Posts: 5913
Loc: runcorn
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I was avoiding this Cuppy. Or trying to.
it does depend a lot on your viewpoint. Being a typical Gemini, I can really sit on the fence, see both sides and as we discussed yesterday, it is a really complex subject to get to the rights and wrongs of the situation.
I think the bias mentioned is referring to the fact that Israel are going in so heavy.
Nowcemsi's post about the treatment of the Palestinians in Gazaover the last 30- 40 years, is accurate in sofar as it reflects the fact that Israel when it hits, tends to hit hard. They do still control the ports and the entry in and out of the territory. The exception being the border with Egypt to the south. Sorry, this is the edited bit, there is no doubt over the years that the Palestinians have suffered horribly in what amount to camps as a result of Israeli response to events.
Ultimately it boils down to the fact that Israel are bigger, have bigger toys and therefore more control. In both sides there is plenty of blame to apportioned. Israel has gone in very heavy compared to a few rockets been lobbed over, on the other hand they put up with rockets for a long time before responding. Hamas cannot say they did not know this would happen; the rest of us were just waiting for Israel to get fed up. Poke a bear with a stick and it will growl.
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I have the talent of single-minded determination and foc....hey, look, dog!
Edited by chilla (08/01/2009 12:59)
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OzzieKez
member
Reged: 21/06/2008
Posts: 2759
Loc: Queensland, Australia
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Seems a bit like the latter Cuppy!
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dizeeblonde
member
Reged: 19/01/2008
Posts: 4632
Loc: Manchester
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Cuppy I did not give my opinion of whose side I am on, as you asked for facts not sides, so have refrained until now. I will get off the fence now, and it will not surprise, though it will anger many, and I will probably get a nasty backlash but this clip - yes it can be called propaganda but it will sum up what I think........... and I feel passionately about this, so therefore I think i should have enough courage in my conviction to not hide my view.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QoC2tGfO0Jc&feature=related
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cupcake
member
Reged: 15/02/2008
Posts: 5982
Loc: On top of the world!!
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Yes, I think so Ozzie. And thanks Chilla. Hope your head is okay today by the way!!! 
I'll do the fence sitting thing as well I think. 
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chilla
member
Reged: 05/09/2008
Posts: 5913
Loc: runcorn
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Why shouldn't you air your opinions? I stated my case on the travellers thread and Mollymandy stated her opposite one to mine. I think she's a lovely woman, but just holds other ideas.
As I said being a genuine fence-sitter on this one, I'll try and keep out of this because to answer anything in that video, will then make me sound pro Israel, which I'm neither one way or the other. I just genuinely think they are as bad as each other in terms of viciousness, it's just that israel has the bigger toys.
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I have the talent of single-minded determination and foc....hey, look, dog!
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cupcake
member
Reged: 15/02/2008
Posts: 5982
Loc: On top of the world!!
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Dizee. Yes, you are right I didn't want opinions because although I didn't FULLY understand the problem, I did realise roughly what it was all about . I really wanted facts and backgrounds and everyone has been really helpful with those.
I purposely said no sides because it is such an emotive subjet and I didn't want to get bogged down in opinions. I realised though that some people were on one side or another.
you have every right to say what you think, as does anyone else. Don't apologise. No one needs to do that.
I'm just grateful for all the help and information I've been given.
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PLASMO
member
Reged: 13/03/2008
Posts: 12465
Loc: FLOUNCELAND
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Dizee,
As I have said before, I totall respect your opinion, however after seeing the first few minutes of the clip, it seems like a good case of proper gander to me, I daresay there might be another clip on You Tube, with the exact same view from the Israelis.
I am being totally honest here ladies, Im not sitting on the fence, I do sympathise with the Israelis, I have personal reasons for saying this of which I would rather not go into on the forum.
Plasmo x
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dizeeblonde
member
Reged: 19/01/2008
Posts: 4632
Loc: Manchester
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Plasmo I too repect your opinion, I have a close male friend who feels just as strongly as me, but he is in support of Israel. We often debate the issue very vocally, but have established the need to agree to disagree and respect each others point of view.I think it is good thing to have an opinion on such a big issue, and there is no way we will all agree, nor can we be expected to on something so difficult.
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PLASMO
member
Reged: 13/03/2008
Posts: 12465
Loc: FLOUNCELAND
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Dizee,
In my opinion you are one of the most intelligent ladies on this forum, and I have always respected any view that you have, and always read with great interest whatever you have to say, and this subject is no exception.
Like you, I think it is a really healthy thing to do, to discuss and even though our opinions differ we still remain friends. I do hope so.
Dizee, was it Man City or United that beat Derby yesterday, OH mumbled something this morning but didnt quite hear what he said?
Plasmo x
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chilla
member
Reged: 05/09/2008
Posts: 5913
Loc: runcorn
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Plasmo, shhhhhh. Dizzee won't fall out with you about Palestine, but don't upset her. It was her team, but you know, they didn't win.
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I have the talent of single-minded determination and foc....hey, look, dog!
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dizeeblonde
member
Reged: 19/01/2008
Posts: 4632
Loc: Manchester
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Plasmo, it was the other way around  Derby beat Manchester United, but they still have to play us at home as it is a 2 legged match. Manchester City were knocked out of th Fa cup at the weekend by a lower division team, so PatsyW and I will be hoping for better results in our next fixtures.
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dizeeblonde
member
Reged: 19/01/2008
Posts: 4632
Loc: Manchester
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Chilla was a bit annoyed at our performance last night, but have forgotten all that now as I have just seen the wreckage of Ronaldo's ferrari, he crashed near Manchester airport, am just relieved he wasn't hurt
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chilla
member
Reged: 05/09/2008
Posts: 5913
Loc: runcorn
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the only way you know that could have been a Ferrari is because Ronaldo was in it. well, he wouldn't be in a mondeo, would he?
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I have the talent of single-minded determination and foc....hey, look, dog!
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Mollymandy
member
Reged: 01/08/2008
Posts: 1511
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Whilst not wishing to take sides - it does seem to me that modern warfare does kill civilians as collateral damage (think that was Cheney's comment). Sad that wars these days are no longer fought by soldiers of opposing countries on a battlefield - not progress at all.
That being said saw that deaths of Palestinians was in the hundreds and that of Israel 10 - with 6 of those being military casualties.
Personally think they both need their heads knocking together but religious wars rumble on for centuries and truly believe that this one will not be shortlived. Worrying to see that missiles are now being launched from Lebanon in an escalation of the conflict - who next? Syria, Egypt and ultimately Iran...
I visited Israel about 5 years ago as they were participating in a couple of our clinical trials - biggest problem was getting out again - was questioned for ages and began to worry whether I would miss my flight! Was interesting to discuss the situation with Boaz from the company I was visiting and how he just regarded conflicts as a part of life. Lovely man.
I should have guessed Chilla : fellow Gemini! Personally would prefer to see Ronaldo on his bike
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