Spanishlady
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Reged: 21/01/2008
Posts: 2409
Loc: Torrevieja Spain
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thanks so much for this thread I feel more confident to discuss this situation now , before I was all for comdemming the Israilis but no see that there are always twwo sides to a story
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bluebella
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Reged: 29/05/2008
Posts: 796
Loc: Essex
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I just googled Gazza strip and was reading a BBC site that explains it a bit clearer. Sorry, I can't do links.
It says Israel was formed 1948 - I never knew that, I thought it had always been there.
Also it's occupied solely by refugees - I didn't know that either. They live is awful conditions.
I've enjoyed reading this thread, it's taught me a lot.
Bluebella
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cupcake
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Reged: 15/02/2008
Posts: 6078
Loc: On top of the world!!
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Thanks again bluebella. That was very interesting. I'm going to look at the area on google now.
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chilla
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Reged: 05/09/2008
Posts: 6188
Loc: runcorn
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following on from your query on wether it was only sensible to re-locate the Jews after the Holocaust. Yes, no and maybe.
As we said before, if israel existed before is quite a moot point. What is sure is that there were palestinians there who unsurprisingly felt pretty hacked off at having to 'share' their home and were pretty much subsumed into the state of Israel as it became then.
Now following on from the Holocaust, the Jews that were liberated from the camps would have been German Jews, French Jews, Polish Jews, Hungarian Jews, Austrian Jews, Russian Jews, etc etc, etc. Not that I am saying it would be an attractive proposition, but should they have been re-located to their original country? I'm not very up on any religious faith, but i think the Jewish population have always wanted a homeland that they can refer to as their own and the area that is modern Israel has been their home for centuries as well as the Palestinians.
Cuppy, ar you secretly formulating a peace deal here? Nobel prize in the offing? Don't forget your research assistants in the acceptance speech. 
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I have the talent of single-minded determination and foc....hey, look, dog!
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Mayday
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Reged: 19/01/2008
Posts: 2046
Loc: Gloucestershire/cotswolds
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This has been really educational! Thanks Chilla and Dizzie(Primarily). It really is an impossible situation but was not helped by the annexing of Palestinian lands for the Jews to settle I feel. The allies who made that decision were,I think, the victors? of WW2.Britain, America and Russia. And yes, I believe Jerusalem and The Dome of the Rock is at the heart of it all. I don't quite understand why except each religion claims it as a Most Holy Place.
What a muddle! But well debated here . Thanks girls. I must ask my son who is a political scientist(Middle Eastern studies) to explain it all to me in his terms!!
Mayday
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I may not be rich or famous but my Grandchildren ARE Priceless !!
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cupcake
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Reged: 15/02/2008
Posts: 6078
Loc: On top of the world!!
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So the land that is now Israel was always of significance to the Jews? It wasn't picked out randomly?
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Mayday
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Reged: 19/01/2008
Posts: 2046
Loc: Gloucestershire/cotswolds
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Chilla....sorry I posted mine before I saw your last one. Thanks for that explanation.....as you say....a moot point really....and why there is no clear cut fair solution!
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I may not be rich or famous but my Grandchildren ARE Priceless !!
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Mayday
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Reged: 19/01/2008
Posts: 2046
Loc: Gloucestershire/cotswolds
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Cuppy.....I was told by a 'historian' that some of the land was actually 'sold' by some of the Arab tribal leaders to the Allies for the Jews. Not sure whether that is true or not. But if so they could be said to be the authors of their own situation now.? Of course they were(Are?) a tribal people so no central government I suppose so what one leader did was not neccesarily agreed by anyone else! Any comment Chilla/Dizzie?
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I may not be rich or famous but my Grandchildren ARE Priceless !!
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cupcake
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Reged: 15/02/2008
Posts: 6078
Loc: On top of the world!!
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Chilla, just want to add that it was from a humanitarian point of view that I originally started this thread and therefore a wish to be better informed.
There was a picture in this morning's papers of a small boy cowering against a wall. He was clearly terrified and whatever the rights and wrongs I cannot bear to see the innocent children suffering. It prompted me to try to understand the situation properly.
Thank you all so much....please continue to inform me!
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chilla
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Reged: 05/09/2008
Posts: 6188
Loc: runcorn
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i think that is the angle that most of us come from, there are some very distressing pictures coming out of Gaza at the moment.
Heard of the Western Wall in Jerusalem, Cuppy. One of the most important religious sites for the Jews. It is all that remains of a temple wall destroyed by the Romans. Jerusalem holds the tomb of David and Bethlehem has the tomb of Rachel, married to Jacob, not to mention a host of other religious sites. So yes they've hanging around there for a while. Given an option, they would have gone for Provence or Tuscany - sorry being a bit frivolous there.
Mayday - can't answer that one, but I wouldn't be suprised. Even now, places like Saudi, it's not what you know, but who and if they are family/tribe that gets you the top jobs. guess that is one for your smart son - sounds a fascinating subject to study.
Right I'm switching off and going home shortly for the vodka that Cuppy's sending over 
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I have the talent of single-minded determination and foc....hey, look, dog!
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cupcake
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Reged: 15/02/2008
Posts: 6078
Loc: On top of the world!!
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Chilla! Thanks you have been a real star...I will def be mentioning you if I ever get a prize for anything and should I ever be lucky enough to meet you the vodka is definitely on me!
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dizeeblonde
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Reged: 19/01/2008
Posts: 4677
Loc: Theatre of Dreams
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As I mentioned before the idea of the a Jewish state was not thought up because of world war two, it was implemented then primarily because of the Holocaust.A policy of what is know as Zionism had been around for a long time, and as I mentioned before Britain came on board this idea with the Balfour agreement.I've tried to find something that sums it up simply. This I think gives a simple synopsis -
Taken from The Economist ---
The birth of the state of Israel was the fulfilment of the Zionist movement, conceived in the 19th century to create a homeland for Jews. Ancient Jews had scattered around the world following their conquest and occupation by the Romans and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. In the 1880s Jews seeking escape from persecution in Europe began migrating en masse to Palestine, then an Arabic-speaking part of the Ottoman empire; by 1914 Palestine’s Jewish population had more than doubled. In 1917, as British forces were despatching the Ottomans in the first world war, Britain issued the Balfour Declaration, stating support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine without “prejudice” to the rights of the Palestinian Arabs. After the war, Palestine was placed under a British mandate and, as Zionist immigration increased, violence flared between its Jewish and Arab communities.
After the Holocaust, pressure grew for the international recognition of a Jewish state, and the UN proposed the partition of the Palestine mandate into two states, one Jewish and one Arab. The Arab states rejected partition and invaded Palestine as soon as the British withdrew. On May 14th 1948, the state of Israel was declared, with David Ben-Gurion as its first prime minister. The Arab invasion was unsuccessful and more than 700,000 Palestinian Arabs were expelled during the fighting. In 1949 Israel signed armistice agreements with its neighbours. However the Arab governments and the Palestinian refugees refused to recognise Israel’s existence as a legitimate country. The region remained unstable. To prop up the beleaguered republic, the Jewish diaspora poured money into Israel, and in the late 1960s the United States became its principal financial and political supporter. Within a few years, the young country had developed an efficient agrarian and technological society, and further strengthened its military superiority over the surrounding Arab countries.
Israel demonstrated its new might in 1956 when it invaded the Egyptian Sinai (with British and French collusion), after Egypt’s nationalisation of the Suez Canal. American intervention forced Israel’s withdrawal. War returned in 1967, when Egypt, Syria and Jordan massed forces to challenge Israel. In a pre-emptive strike, Israel smashed its enemies’ forces in just six days and captured the West Bank, the Gaza strip, the Golan Heights and the Sinai peninsula. As the Israeli government moved to build Jewish settlements in the occupied territories, the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO), led by Yasser Arafat, took the lead role in fighting the Israeli occupation.
In October 1973, on the Jewish holy day of Yom Kippur, Egypt and Syria launched a surprise attack in the Sinai and the Golan Heights. The Israelis were not defeated but Arab honour was restored, paving the way for peace negotiations under American auspices. In 1979 Egypt signed a peace agreement with Israel, and in 1994 Jordan did the same. But only in the early 1990s, after years of intifada (popular uprising), did Israel and the Palestinians begin to speak of a peace process. Despite the establishment of a Palestinian Authority and the hand-over of parts of the West Bank and the Gaza strip to its control, Palestinian terrorism, Israel’s harsh occupation policies, the accelerated construction of Jewish settlements, the plight of the refugees and the disputed status of Jerusalem all continued to block progress. A second, bloodier intifada began in 2000, and peace remains elusive
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BEL
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Reged: 21/02/2008
Posts: 2480
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The Western Wall is the the' Wailing Wall' which is all that
is left of Solomon's Temple....have visited this,very
sad ,moving place.
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BEL
member
Reged: 21/02/2008
Posts: 2480
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Thanks Dizee,and the Economist.Put in simple terms.
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cupcake
member
Reged: 15/02/2008
Posts: 6078
Loc: On top of the world!!
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Dizee, thank you for finding that. It helps to have the real background.
Again, thank you also for your input...I'm very pleased to be so much better informed than I was this morning.
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BEL
member
Reged: 21/02/2008
Posts: 2480
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Cuppy, the Jews were not in POW camps,they were in
Concentration camps...'death camps'.
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cupcake
member
Reged: 15/02/2008
Posts: 6078
Loc: On top of the world!!
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Sorry, my mistake. I do know that of course. (My D has been to Auschwitz and my son was stationed at Bergen Bergen.)
So sorry for my mistake.
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Mayday
member
Reged: 19/01/2008
Posts: 2046
Loc: Gloucestershire/cotswolds
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Thanks for that very succinct and factual report from the Economist Dizzie. What is missing of course is the difficulties caused by the very different cultural outlooks and belief systems of the Arabs(Palastinians) and the Jews.
But it does point up what a muddle the whole region has gone through and it will take years yet to sort it out. It is difficult for us with definite borders to our little island to understand why different peoples can have claims to the same bit of land. I suppose the Scots and Welsh border battles would be the nearest thing we have seen? But they were conducted before the horrific weaponry now available to warring factions. And one of our main exports is armaments!!!!But that is another thread I think?!!
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I may not be rich or famous but my Grandchildren ARE Priceless !!
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BEL
member
Reged: 21/02/2008
Posts: 2480
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Thanks Cuppy for starting this very infomative thread,has
certainly given us all food for thought.Bel
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nowcemsi
member
Reged: 24/06/2008
Posts: 462
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So sad, biblically the Jews where Gods chosen race
so why are they trying to anihalate each other?
sigh
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