cupcake
member
Reged: 15/02/2008
Posts: 5982
Loc: On top of the world!!
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Thanks Plasmo.
Most of what I have been told I think I knew in an obscure kind of way. Just really needed to have it all clarified. Thanks to you all.
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dizeeblonde
member
Reged: 19/01/2008
Posts: 4633
Loc: Manchester
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Cuppy just to confuse you even more Hamas have actually been elected now in Palestine, and Israel do not recognise Palestine as a state, just as they don't recognise Israel. The main gripe in all this is Jerusalem, Palestinian refugees, and Jewish settlements.
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OzzieKez
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Reged: 21/06/2008
Posts: 2759
Loc: Queensland, Australia
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Dizee,
There is a book your daughter may have:
The Book of God, The Bible as a novel by Walter Wangerin.
I think it clarifies the situation rather well........
I'm afraid it makes me very angry!
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Mayday
member
Reged: 19/01/2008
Posts: 2046
Loc: Gloucestershire/cotswolds
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The election of Hamas as the legit. government of Palastine is an example of how democracy does not always give the result the rest of the world wants!!! Which is why I have reservations about Americas(G.Bush) wish to 'create'/impose democratic states in e.g Iraq. Democracy is not always the 'best' form of government!!!for every nation.
Dizzie...you obviously have a very good background to this tragic situation. How much of todays' mess is due to the 'giving' of Palastinian lands to the Israelis back in 1945? by the then 'Allies' one of which was Britain.?
I know it is complicated now and the insight into the American right wing christian attitude to the Jews explains a lot! The Americans have always supported Israel trmendously. There is no clear right and wrong I feel but there has to be some humanitarian consideration. The Israeli army is massively strong against a relatively few terrorists. There must be a better solution then going to war....yet again!
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I may not be rich or famous but my Grandchildren ARE Priceless !!
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Mollymandy
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Reged: 01/08/2008
Posts: 1511
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I just wonder whether the timing was a little convenient as Bush was still in the White House along with his warmongering cronies. I would hope that once Obama takes over the reins, that some sort of solution will be brought to bear in this tragic war and the killing of innocent civilians.
Both Hamas extremists and Israel seem to have scant regard for the deaths of children. Shame on them both.
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chilla
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Reged: 05/09/2008
Posts: 5916
Loc: runcorn
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I was out with a friend last night, who visits friends regularly in palestine. Her understanding from her palestinian friends is that both Hamas and Hezbollah are Iranian backed.
From what she said, Hamas have a rather unpleasant habit of using mosques and schools to use as a base from which to launch rocket attacks. I know this may come across as pro Israeli, which given that I understand only broadly the geopolitical situation it isn't, but the bottom line is that Hamas knew vey well that if they kept firing rockets at Israel, Israel would fight back.. It's a bit like having a neighbour that you don't like who throws rubbish over your garden fence, you may grumble for a while, but after a bit, you get to thowing his rubbish back and some of your own,. Trifle simplistic, but same principle.
There's a huge difference in the Middle Eastern mindset to that of the Western mindset ( no inference intended about which is the better) and I think it makes a very complex region even more difficult to understand as people's motivations and reactions differ in so many ways. Which doesn't mean to say that the basics don't apply.
Just too many nutters in the world,s he said intellectually!!
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I have the talent of single-minded determination and foc....hey, look, dog!
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PLASMO
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Reged: 13/03/2008
Posts: 12492
Loc: FLOUNCELAND
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Good Morning Everyone,
I respect all of your opinions on this dreadful situation, but feel that the concensus of opinion lies in the support of Palestine, an opinion I cannot share.
Plasmo x
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cupcake
member
Reged: 15/02/2008
Posts: 5982
Loc: On top of the world!!
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This is all very interesting. Thanks to you all for posting.
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chilla
member
Reged: 05/09/2008
Posts: 5916
Loc: runcorn
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What's today's brain teaser, Cuppy? The meaning of life? Fermat's Theorum?
Plasmo, I'm definitely in the neutral camp, because there is just no way that I can ever make a really informed decision and see stupid actions made by both sides. I was trying very hard not to sound pro one or the other.
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I have the talent of single-minded determination and foc....hey, look, dog!
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JustJules
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Reged: 10/03/2008
Posts: 324
Loc: Lancashire
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That's a very unbiased and excellent explanation but like you said, it's a very complex situation. The only thing I know is from what my father has always told me as he was in the Army based in Egypt around 1947 and that the way the Palestinians were treated by the Israelis was inhumane and appalling. The Palestinians have been virtual prisoners in their own land for years. Okay, so Hamas are a terrorist group and to be abhored but does that still give Israel the right to target innocent civilians? The IRA were terroists and did many sickening atrocities in the name of their cause but did we go in as ground troups and kill thousands of innocent people in the name of justice? It all to do with Israel wanting what they see is their land back and want to see Palestine obliterated off the face of the earth. Only my view and opinion of a very complex and dire situation.
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cupcake
member
Reged: 15/02/2008
Posts: 5982
Loc: On top of the world!!
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changed my mind about my facetious remark.
Please keep posting, it's very informative.
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Edited by cupcake (07/01/2009 10:04)
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PLASMO
member
Reged: 13/03/2008
Posts: 12492
Loc: FLOUNCELAND
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Chilla,
Understand totally, none of us really know the whole story of any dispute, the information derived from our news bulletins etc, is all we can base our opinions on.
The good thing about living in this country of ours is thank god we live in a democracy, and can give our opinions and thoughts. That is what freedom of speech is all about.
Plasmo xx
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JustJules
member
Reged: 10/03/2008
Posts: 324
Loc: Lancashire
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I agree Chilla, I wish I could put my words so succinctly as you do. The trouble is, these 'nutters' in the Middle East who can't seem to be anything but extreme in their thinking and actions and the repercutions are making the world a very unstable place and we just have to sit back and watch them blow each other up in the name of something that doesn't mean a thing to us and have to live with the consequences.
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chilla
member
Reged: 05/09/2008
Posts: 5916
Loc: runcorn
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Quote:
Thought we might move on to Quantum Physics if that's ok....
now I don't fully understand that either...so if you could explain please 
Sure there's black holes and the electrons bounce off the quarks which makes the speed of light faster than the speed of sound. Sometimes the big particles explode and form into baby particles.
i think if you can get hold of a Clangers DVD, it will become a lot clearer.
Meaning of life, because i know you are coming to that one, be nice and do the best you can.
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I have the talent of single-minded determination and foc....hey, look, dog!
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bluebella
member
Reged: 29/05/2008
Posts: 796
Loc: Essex
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Going back to the Gazza strip, I don't know much about the situation either but is it just a small piece of land we're talking about?
Excuse my ignorance but i just get the impression of a small piece of land so wonder why it's not just divided by the two? I know that's a very simplistic aproach, but hopefully you know what I mean.
Bluebella
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cupcake
member
Reged: 15/02/2008
Posts: 5982
Loc: On top of the world!!
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Thanks bluebella...I would like that to be clarified as well...
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chilla
member
Reged: 05/09/2008
Posts: 5916
Loc: runcorn
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You see Bluebella you are the perfect reason why the w&h ladies should be in charge of, well, evberything. Imagine the meeting room, 'OK, I propose that we stop bickering and split it into two thereby saving future generations from being imprisoned by their history and being locked into an endless cycle of misery and bloodshed, and stopping the slaughter of innocents.' All the w & h women would agree and everything would be sorted.
If you see Dizzee's first post she has outlined the history of the Gaza strip. Besides a number of interested parties claiming it as rightfully theirs, I should imagine that there are better places in terms of infrastructure, access to sea ports etc and that alone would be a reason why there will be no compromise. The Gaza strip is about 25 miles long and around 5 miles wide.
Just Jules, I think the difference between the situation in N Ireland and palestine is that on the whole (I'm sure someone will be along to say differently) neither paarty consistently used civilians as a shield to cover their rocket launch sites in the way that happens in palestine. Therefore if the Israelis decide to take out a rocket launch site then that means they take out a lot of civilian innocents as well. That isn't an excuse or condemnation for any activity, just an explanation.
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I have the talent of single-minded determination and foc....hey, look, dog!
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bluebella
member
Reged: 29/05/2008
Posts: 796
Loc: Essex
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Chilla, I have read the posts (only skimmed though as I'm at work) and what i still don't understand is how did this strip of land come to be on it's own? I imagaine it's joined on to another country/state or is it divided by a sea or something?
Sorry, as I said I really don't know much about it but now it's been brought up I'd like to find out.
Thanks,
Bluebella
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OzzieKez
member
Reged: 21/06/2008
Posts: 2759
Loc: Queensland, Australia
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Well for centuries the whole region was Bedouin land. Because it was considered by a completely different culture, that the land was not being correctly utilised, it was annexed as a place to put the Jews displaced by WWII. Hollywood filmakers are predominantly Jewish, so that is the story we are most familiar with.
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cupcake
member
Reged: 15/02/2008
Posts: 5982
Loc: On top of the world!!
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Chilla, do I understand this correctly? The Palestinians deliberately place their own people around their weapon sites? (or the weapon sites where there are lots of civilians) Deliberately putting them in danger? Is that right?
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