| Maire |
| (member) |
| 10/07/2008 12:29 |
Daughter and husband
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I would really like advice here please. Daughter (17) arrived home last night very drunk. First time as far as I know. We were really annoyed and at first she denied anything was wrong. However, when husband left room, she told me that the reason she was drinking was that she couldn't face coming home "to HIM" (her Dad), as he was violent and needed anger-management. Now, I knew what she was talking about, as in general he is easy-going and takes a lot more cheek and demands from the kids (we have 4 teenagers) than I do, but on occasion - usually over something trivial - he explodes. This has happened maybe twice a year, but more frequently in last while (teen years are awful!!). These blow-ups consist of belting the kids, going puce with rage while roaring at them and attempting to kick down doors when they lock themselves in bedroom. Obviously, I attempt to come between them, but have found this really enrages him - almost to madness - and he takes it out on them even more, so I have done my best to calm him, get the kids away, etc. Anyway, it all came out last night - she said I should have called police, divorced him and that I didn't protect them. She is going on holiday with friends today and I promised her I would do something while she is away, but I don't know what to do. This morning, I couldn't discuss the matter with OH, as it isn't something you can start while rushing out to work. He had overheard some of the conversation last night and said that while he regrets causing hurt to her, he is not prepared to take "blame for her drinking." I just want to get D to airport before the Sh** hits the fan. Am really upset and wonder what people think I should do - go to counsellor (how do you pick one?), solicitor or police? I really don't want to get him a criminal record and have kids give statements against him - he really is a good person when not like this. Anyway, there is no way he will leave home voluntarily. What can I do?
| OzzieKez |
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| 10/07/2008 13:30 |
Re: Daughter and husband
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First he needs to see his GP. Sometimes underlying heart problems cause this type of thing. Preferably, go as a couple and discuss your concerns. Counselling, particularly an anger management program would seem appropriate. Your GP should be able to refer you to what is available. If you want to stay in the marriage, tell him that he needs to change his behaviour because you are not prepared to risk any negative outcomes with regard to you or the kids. Make sure he understands that it has to stop now. Prepare an exit strategy and do not be afraid to use it. Never put yourself or the kids at risk. Violence tends to escalate.
As for your daughter. She needs to know she can always voice her concerns to you and that you will listen. Show her that violence is unacceptable, you don't want her to accept it in the future. We all make mistakes, especially when we are young. Let her know she has your support and go from there.
| wisp1 |
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| 10/07/2008 13:34 |
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Re: Daughter and husband
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Just a thought, could you get him to see his GP, maybe about something else, and then mention the anger problem. I dont suspose it will be easy but getting him on an anger management course would be helpful. I know a young man who was sent on one and it has made a huge difference to him.
Is there something happening in his life that has caused an escalation of the violence?
I'm quite worried reading your post (having been with a violent partner many years ago) that one day he will go too far and really hurt you or your family. When my ex was in a rage he did not know what he was doing and was a totally different person. There was no way I could talk to him or even make him take notice of what he was doing and several times he really hurt me (bruises, marks on neck, bad scald to arm, pulling hair out etc). We also had several doors with holes in where he had kicked them or thrown things at them. Fortunately he never took it out on the kids, Im not judging you as I know how hard it is to be in that situation, but if he had ever 'belted' the kids the police would have been called and he would never have come back to the house. Your daughter sounds as if she has finally had enough of his violence and you risk losing her altogether if something isnt done about it. If she is drinking as a result of this than she needs urgent help to cope with it as well. Eventually your other children are likely to rebel as well, they may even decide to fight violence with violence and that would be dreadful for all concerned.
Please. please dont think I am getting at you, his violence is NOT your fault, although no doubt he blames you for 'winding him up' and causing the anger. You need to stop this behaviour now before anyone else is hurt. Your daughter has told you how much she needs your help and I think it is time that you considered your childrens safety even if it does mean calling the police. Your husband wont get a criminal record just because you call the police when he is in one of his rages, they will attend, then return another day and take statements but it is still up to you whether you take the matter any further. If you dont nothing more will happen, but it just might make your husband realise that this cant continue. Violent men reply on the fact that we love and forgive them and the fact that he is usually a lovely person does not mean that he had the right to hurt you and your family.
I know what I am suggesting seems impossible to you, trying to keep an angry and violent man happy so that these rages do not happen takes up most of your energy and when he does fly into a rage you take the blame for it. IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT. I also know that it take all your confidence and makes you feel that you are worthless, no one else will ever want you, and that life is so hard there is nothing you can do to change things, Trust me, having been there and moved on I know there are lots of things you can do, you just need to be brave and take the first step.
You have taken that first step in posting on this forum, let us support you and help you. If you want to pm me do so.
I beg you dont let this continue, you need to get out before he ruins your childrens lives, you and they deserve better. I dont care how nice he is inbetween he knows what he is doing and he knows it is wrong, he just doesnt care enough to get help to stop it.
Well done for asking for help. Take care
| annemari |
| (member) |
| 10/07/2008 13:43 |
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Re: Daughter and husband
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The best thing that has happened so far is that your D is going on holiday,this will put some space between your OH and your D.
What does also concern me is that you state your D was very drunk,at only 17!!Who supplied this alchohol? If it was a business,then they are only interested in profit and should be reported. If it was a friend,then they don't give a toss about your D or themselves and as for using your OH as this reason, sorry, but I just don't buy it,your D went out, enjoyed herself and didn't worry about the possible effects that her condition would have.(Been there,done that.)Nor did she think what might have happened to her in that state,but I bet your OH did,and it frightened him into such a rage.
However,as always there are two sides to the coin. Is it possible that your OH is finding it hard to accept that his 'little girl'is growing up?,and it's even harder when your 'teens' challenge the parents authority.
Of course,belting is out of the question and your OH needs to accept that before it gets out of hand. Going puce,he can't help,that is part of his natural make-up,(I tend to go white with rage,not often thankfully)
From experience I know that if I or my brothers ever locked our bedroom doors then they would be very quickly taken off the hinges!!no if's or buts.
Maybe,so long as nothing physical happened,you shouldn't step in,you could play devil's advocate. Tell your D that you agree with her Dad,be a unity together,there is a possibility that your D is trying to play one of against another.As for divorce,no child of 17 really knows the long term consequences of that,and should be stopped in her tracks for suggesting it,it is your marriage,not hers an only you can decide if that is the absolute last resort.
While your D is on holiday,take the opportunity to talk with you OH,and try to find the happy medium,also tell your D that is what you are going to do,then when your D arrives home,you would like all of you sit down together and talk about it,like adults. At 17 your D is very much responsible for her own actions.
Counsellor can get involved if all parties want it.
Police get involved if a complaint is made.
Solicitor,that is up to you.
But I do feel if you and your OH can give this trying time a go,it will soon pass.
Please,don't think I am telling you what to do,this is purely advice.
Just hope some if not all of it helps.
Good Luck
annemari x
| mcdizzy |
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| 10/07/2008 13:57 |
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Re: Daughter and husband
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Hi
You've done exactly the right thing in listening to your daughter and taking on board her concerns. It does sound as if your H has anger management issues that need to be addressed but I wonder if there are any other aspects of abuse in his relationships with other people he cares about. Does he feel the need to be in control? always have the final? Dictate on friendships etc?
There is a really good organisation called Respect who can put him in touch with local services in your area who work to address these control/abusive attitudes.
http://www.respect.uk.net/
with regards to calling the Police, if the Police were to attend (and it might be a neighbour/your daughter who calls them), they would certainly take into consideration your wishes, but I'm afraid they are duty bound to protect the vulnerable. If children are involved they would almost certainly have to let the Local Authority Childrens Services know about the incident(they should tell you they are doing this). Children's Services would then make an assessment based on the information they have. You may or may not be contacted/hear any more on the matter - depending on the seriousness and local standards.
Another organisation that might be able to help is your local Family Mediation service. Or some areas have a mediation service for teens & parents. Relate might also help and some areas have a service for teenagers, run by Relate.
The important thing is that your H is responsible for his actions and blaming D is shifting the blame. It is unacceptable to chase people into other rooms and to hit people. There are other ways of dealing with the rage that boils inside us when we are upset by something, its just finding the organisation that can help the best.
pm me if you'd like to.
| DeepBlue |
| (member) |
| 10/07/2008 14:08 |
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Re: Daughter and husband
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Marie, I'm sorry you are in this situation. I know from personal experience how frightening it is. YOU MUST GET YOURSELF AND YOUR KIDS OUT OF THIS SITUATION IMMEDIATELY. You can worry about your home later.
I was married to a very charming abuser for 20 years. THis 'charming' man who was a pillar of the community wrecked the kitchen breaking a ceramic hob in the process, kicked in the front door, kicked the open plan stairs to pieces - all because he was 'upset'. He also did sevral other appaling things.I put up with it for years because of his 'charm' and his difficult childhood. It was only when I had him arrested that he began to realise his behaviour was not acceptable.
Your husband is behaving totally unreasoanbly - he could kill someone if he rages like this. I might be wrong but I bet he's hit you too. Even if he hasn't a 17 year old is a young woman not a kid and doesn't deserve to be 'belted' not matter what she does. No child does.
I'm deliberately posting this on the open forum because men and not only men get away with such behaviour because none of us want to admit that someoe who loves us and who we love would behave like this.
I hate giving advice but I would suggest you take your family and go to a place of safety (friends, family, Women's Aid etc.) - don't confront him to leave yet. I would also go informally to the police because they often have domestic violence units who know how to deal with this and will advise you. Counsellor's are a bit more difficult because your OH has to be the one who WANTS to have counselling. Do what YOU feel is best. As regards criminal convictions it's pretty hard for a guy to be convicted - much harder than it should be.
I realise this might seem extreme but it might just make him think seriously about his behaviour. Sadly once he's done it once he's likely to get worse, especially if you have teenagers who are challenging even in the calmest family.
I realise you probably don't want this advice - and please don't share this with him. It's unpalatable but necessary. After I finally left my husband and believe me that took courage he told me that even when I thought he was out of control he knew exactly what he was doing and chillingly told me that otherwise he'd have killed me! He was 6ft 3in and built like a tank. Sadly I have a constant reminder of his behaviour - a little bruise above my lip which comes up now and again - where he punched me in the face, in front of my young neice and nephew, and I needed stitches.
My ex is a social worker, much beloved by his clients and old ladies and children but the reality for anyone who lives with him is very different. I have no idea where he is now and frankly don't care. We never had children (how could we)
I unwittingly know a lot about domestic violence and have written and had published many articles about it. I was also at that time a trainer in assertiveness. We had no money worries and we didn't drink I wish I hadn't had the experience but it has made me stronger.
If you can get a book called 'Charming Men who make dangerous lovers' by Erin Pizzey (sp) of Chiswick Women's Aid - it's a relevation.
Please, please don't listen to the bleeding heart liberals just get out of there. Please don't blame yourself or make excuses for him. Such behaviour, no matter the circumstances is not acceptable. Don't be embarrased about it either - all sorts of people from different backrgounds and circumstances find themselves in this situation through no fault of their own.
To end on a positive note ten years on I'm very happy and have rebuilt my life. It wasn't easy but oh the joy of coming home to peace and quiet and never having that gut crunching fear or the overnight bag constanly to hand for quick escapes.
Good luck, be brave and my very best wishes.
Pat aka Poppyc
| DeepBlue |
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| 10/07/2008 14:18 |
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Re: Daughter and husband
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Sorry to sound offensive but you must be living in a very quiet part of the countryside (is there such a place) if you've never seen a 17 year old drunk. Go to any city centre on a weekend evening and they're everywhere. Try a city A&E if you really want to be shocked! And who can blame kids when the increasingly most alcohol abusive group are middle aged women - the only difference is that they buy it at the supermarket and drink it at home!
| wisp1 |
| (member) |
| 10/07/2008 14:28 |
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Re: Daughter and husband
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Agree totally with Poppyc's post.
i am aware that there is always 2 sides to a story but there is NEVER any excuse for violent behaviour.
| DeepBlue |
| (member) |
| 10/07/2008 14:33 |
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Re: Daughter and husband
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Annemari, I doubt that you have never lived with a violent partner. Do you know how many women are killed by their partner each year or that on average women are hit many, many, many times before they report a partner. It's not a question of sitting down quietly to discuss it. That simply doesn't work.
Your comment about locks on doors says it all. You appear to be incredibly naive. Giving someone such advice often just makes them feel even worse and inadequate. IT IS NOT HER FAULT.
I sincerely hope that you are never at the receiving end of such behaviour. No marriage with such behaviour is worth defending.
| issi |
| (member) |
| 10/07/2008 14:37 |
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Re: Daughter and husband
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I have read all these posts with deep shock. I know if I saw that kind of rage in anyone, man or woman, I would be absolutely terrified. Maire's daughter is suffering even when he is not in a rage. PoppyC knows what she is talking about, there is no compromise here. Please let us know if you take action Maire. x
| annemari |
| (member) |
| 10/07/2008 16:00 |
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Re: Daughter and husband
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EXACTLY-POPPYC-Thats why I divorced my second husband.
Not only was he violent,but he turned out to be a drunkard and a thief!!! Having lost my first husband,I tried deperately not to have my daughters unsettled again,which is why I suggested the conversation route, like, if possible, two sensible adults,if it doesn't work,then,Maire can at least say she tried. I tried,it didn't work,I got out.
So, yes thank-you,I am blissfully happy now in my third marriage,approaching its tenth year.
And no Poppy I am not naive,how could I be with my personal problems from the past,and the awful experience of having to place a child (8 years old)into a place of safety, because he was stoned out of his mind from Supermarket Alchohol.
As for the locked doors,if you read carefully,that was my own father,who I love dearly,but it was HIS and my MOTHER's house,and what they said went. If Dad said jump,you asked
"How high?"
There were many many times as a teenager when I would think too myself,Why did mum stay with him?. Well,as I got older, I realised why,because she loved him and he her.But that didn't mean that either of them loved us less.
I'm very close to losing my Dad now,(from his ill-health)I recognise it,my brothers recognise it.So I am damn sure I'm glad I didn't lose him as a teenager.
Only Maire can decide what she wants to do.I have said this before,pick out the advice that suits you,dismiss the rest,and do as you please.
I wish you well Maire,whatever you do.
| Maire |
| (member) |
| 10/07/2008 17:32 |
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Re: Daughter and husband
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Thanks everyone for all the advice - am crying as I read it. I know I am making excuses, but honestly he is very gentle apart from the explosions, but yes it is totally unacceptable and until last night I did not realise how badly it affected my daughter. Incidentally, she is the one who is least likely to annoy anyone - very gentle, kind, helpful - and totally out-of-character for her. OH has never laid a hand on me - and we get on extremely well apart from this. OssieKez, funny you should mention heart - he lately had to have a sudden procedure. I plan to talk to him now that D has left country for fortnight - will lay it on line that he gets help. Told her I would have that organised before she comes back. She wanted me to cancel her trip because she is so worried about her youngest brother and effect it will have on him. Did not say much about alcohol before she left - just emphasised it was damaging her and putting her in danger. Thank you all so much. Will keep you posted xx
| mcdizzy |
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| 10/07/2008 19:43 |
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Re: Daughter and husband
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I would just add for anyone reading and feeling that this thread also applies to them, that leaving home should be carefully planned (except if you are in immediate danger of harm.) If you live with an abusive person (whether they abuse you or another member of your family) the risk of physical harm is likely to increase when the abuser realises that he is being 'left'. Their feeling of control is being lost. So its best if you can to get some help to plan your exit safely.
| annemari |
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| 10/07/2008 20:58 |
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Re: Daughter and husband
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Well put,McDizzy,my talking with my second OH also bought me time to work out Plan B. It kept me,my daughters and my then two young grandchildren safe. Plan A didn't work.Plan B was permanent.
Maire,your latest post indicates you have some foundation to work on.I wish you and your family well for the future.
Sending you 'virtual'(((hugs))) and flowers.
annemari x
| jenny1 |
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| 10/07/2008 21:32 |
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Re: Daughter and husband
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annemari
I have read some ot he posts and feel there is too much 'get out' going on. Obviously loads of people have been in similar situations and I do not advocate staying witha a violent man, but as your relationship with your husband is OK then that is a starting point.
I was in a similar position for 23 yrs and last year - on my daughters advice moved out. I was so unhappy and so were the rest of the family.
My husband had 'bullied' and 'controlled' bothe the children and me and because of my own low self esteem I let it happen. I told him - no love. no respect = no marriage.
We talked a lot and ar still together. The children - 21 and 17 have talked it through too and in our case have managed to resolve this. I am having BIG problems with my 17 yr old son and know ther are lots of ulterior motives and me, me, me going on there. Please don't rush into anything.
PM me if you want and I will be thinking of you all.
Love Jenny
| DeepBlue |
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| 11/07/2008 01:24 |
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Re: Daughter and husband
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Hi Jenni
I'm sorry but I get the impression that you are inferring that 'get out' is the easy option. I appreciate that everyone's circumstances are different but it is NEVER an easy option to 'get out'. I am 62 and when this happened to me there were simply not the services in place that there are today. Also how can anyone's relationship be OK if they have to witness their partner 'belting' their child.
I am a very confident person, was the higher earner in the partnership, the cleverer, came from a very loving home without any violence where myself and all my siblings were treated with respect and allowed to be ourselves and to accept responsibility etc. but I came out of it poorer and with my self esteem battered and no my ex wasn't an out and out b******. He just needed to control everything due to his extremely low self esteem. He could be kind and considerate and hugely romantic but in a second spoil it with temper flare ups. We jointly wrote and had published an article which explained how it felt from both sides and it was clear from that that he hated his own behaviour but couldn't change it. I don't hate him but I hated his behaviour and in the end it killed all feelings I had for him.
If you can resolve it you're very lucky - please don't think we didn't try. I will never believe that it is better to stay together for the sake of the children. If you're fearful as a logical mature person think how much worse it must be for children. However as I said in my original post Marie must be the one who makes the decision. I would second the comments that it has to be carefully planned as the violence usually escalates if the abuser feels under threat but if there is any possibility of harm to yourself and your children get out immediately. Bricks and mortar can be replaced physical, emotional and psychological damage is much more difficult to put right. Being in this position paralyses you until you can't think straight.
In no way am I criticising Marie IT IS NOT HER FAULT and as I said in my first post she must do what SHE thinks is right.
However in my opinion home should be a haven not a battlefield.
Best wishes,
Pat aka Poppyc
| DeepBlue |
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| 11/07/2008 01:43 |
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Re: Daughter and husband
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annemari. My apologies for making assumptions about you. That was wrong. However I still stick by the views expressed in my posts. I'm afraid that in my opinion love simply doesn't excuse abuse.
Best Wishes
Pat aka Poppyc
| jenny1 |
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| 13/07/2008 22:47 |
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Re: Daughter and husband
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Pat/Poppyc
I wasn't inferring that getting out is the easy option, but a number of the posts are telling Maire to get out which is not necessarily the only option. Young people of Maires daughters age are notoriously hyper and dramatic and many things and situations are blown out of control. I agree with those who advocate getting out of an abusive relationship, but these things are not black and white.
Distrupting a family is a very big step. I listened to my daughter and did get out initially, but as i said perviously we did get through it, but only because everyone concerned looked at themselves and worked on it.
Best regards
Jenny
| Meg01 |
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| 13/07/2008 23:58 |
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Re: Daughter and husband
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Just to say that i had been in a situation where our 17 year old was happy for me to end a marital situation with a at times controlling and other times uncaring H. A few years on with the marriage ended and son still with me they get along not too badly. Some things need addressing and possibly i let H black moods and bursts of temper get in the way of what i felt was acceptable behaviour from a partner. (easy life syndrome!!) Outcome pretty drastic but
we at least speak to one another which is good for children though there is still a feeling of the "being careful what you say" going on. It's not easy but I'm lucky in the sense that I now live without the criticism and anger and have managed financially with extra work and families help to keep a home together. Just to say do whatever you feel is right for you and your children and i'm sure you will get there. Meg x
| Maire |
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| 14/07/2008 16:13 |
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Re: Daughter and husband
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Just an update and thanks to all of you for the posts. We had a talk yesterday and because he knew what D had said, he told me that he had already investigated Anger Management courses, without me having suggested it, so that's hopeful. I have insisted that he has appointment set up before D comes home, so at least she will know that I have taken her fears seriously. He also says he will apologise to her. We will see how that goes!! Thanks again all of you.
| annemari |
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| 14/07/2008 23:18 |
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Re: Daughter and husband
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Maire,I applaud your OH,it took a lot of courage to find out what is available to him and that he too has listened not only to you but his D as well.
I do hope that he does make that appointment and sticks by it. I am also impressed by the fact that he wants to apologies to his D and maybe that means he has accepted she is growing up,and must now treat her as a young lady,who deserves not only his love but his respect, however,respect is a two-way operation and one that will need to be worked at,and it certainly isn't an easy thing for a young girl to accomplish,without first looking at herself.
Family troubles are never solved in an instance. Your D still has raging hormones,but with love and understand between you all,I truely believe that your marriage is strong enough to get through this.It won't be a walk in the park,but then that's life.
I am so glad that you don't feel the need to just 'opt out'of your marriage,you are definitely the lynchpin in your family,however,there are going to be tough times ahead,and there will no doubt be tears,arguments but hopefully much laughter as your family transgress from Adults/Children to all of you being Adults.
Good Luck to you all,at least you are trying to keep the family unit together. Well done.
