| cupcake |
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| 06/01/2009 18:15 |
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I don't fully understand the Israel/Palestine 'problem'....
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could someone explain it to me properly please? Preferably from the begining and I don't want 'sides' just facts!
How it all came about and what it WAS and IS all about.
I know about some of it but can anyone tell me the whole story please?
| Thimble |
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| 06/01/2009 18:18 |
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Re: I don't fully understand the Israel/Palestine 'problem'....
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I would like to know as well cupcake. I seem to recall reading somewhere that it is something to do with land belonging to one of them then the other took it back and the gaza strip is sort of no mans land. I might be wrong...............
| Tigerfeet |
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| 06/01/2009 18:21 |
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Re: I don't fully understand the Israel/Palestine 'problem'....
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Can someone tell me too please ...
| Barney |
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| 06/01/2009 18:26 |
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If you mean the current situation Cupcake - apparently a ceasefire was agreed between Hamas and the Israelis last June/July. Despite this Hamas continued to fire rockets/mortars into Israel. Israel repeatedly warned them that action would be taken if they didn't stop. The agreed ceasefire ended in November. Hamas continued to fire rockets and Israel is now taking retaliatory(sp?). At least thats how I understand it.
| chattycathy |
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| 06/01/2009 18:29 |
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Re: I don't fully understand the Israel/Palestine 'problem'....
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I dont have a clue Cuppy as I'm not up on these things as I tend to live with my head in the clouds...
Cathy X
| mezzanine |
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| 06/01/2009 18:40 |
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I don't fully understand the history of the conflict either but this is what I found on the net:
'The roots of the current conflict lie in the battle over land claimed by both Israel and the Palestinians.
In 1947, the United Nations recommended partitioning what was then the British mandate of Palestine into Arab and Jewish states. Jewish settlers declared the formation of the state of Israel in 1948, prompting the surrounding Arab nations to invade. By the end of the brief war, the land that was to have been the Palestinian Arab state was occupied partially by Israel and partially by Egypt and Jordan. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were expelled or fled Israeli-controlled territory and many wound up in refugee camps in the Egyptian-held Gaza Strip.
In 1967, Israel launched a pre-emptive strike on Egypt, Syria and Jordan and occupied the Gaza Strip, West Bank and East Jerusalem, among other areas. The Gaza Strip remained under Israeli control until 1994, when it became partly autonomous under the Palestinian National Authority as a result of the Oslo accords. Israel continued to exercise considerable control in the area, however, and Israeli settlements that had been built during the period of military occupation remained.
Successive peace processes started and stalled in the following years. Neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians lived up to commitments made under a timetable set forth in 2003 meant to lead to a Palestinian state next to Israel. Israel did eventually evacuate its settlements in the Gaza Strip, however, forcibly ejecting Israeli citizens from these settlements in 2005.
In June, an Egyptian-brokered cease-fire between Hamas and Israel halted missiles being fired into Israel and stopped Israeli incursions into Gaza. The truce lapsed on Dec. 19 and, following dozens of rocket attacks from Gaza, Israel launched its crackdown.'
| Thimble |
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| 06/01/2009 18:43 |
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Thank you mezzie that sums it up nicely and now I understand.
| chilla |
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| 06/01/2009 19:15 |
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Re: I don't fully understand the Israel/Palestine 'problem'....
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But they will bicker for years. Well said Barney. Now can someone tell me why Israel is taking so much flak after being attacked by rockets for so long before retaliating. Is it just that people view the response as diproportionate or is it more that people seem not to think Israel should be there at all.
Am I right in thinking that Hamas are Iranian backed?
| BEL |
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| 06/01/2009 19:32 |
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Hamas get their supplies through from Egypt,don't know
whether Iranian backed....but the President of Iran,is it
Aminadab? threatened 'to wipe Israel off the face of the
earth'.The Jews now Israel said they would never become
submissive again,after the loss of 6 million in the
holocaust.
| nowcemsi |
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| 06/01/2009 19:34 |
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I interpret the situation to be that Israel want to push Palestine off the planet and or the sea!!
| BEL |
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| 06/01/2009 19:45 |
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Israel could have done that a long time ago if that was
what they were about...they have a very highly,efficent,
modern army.
| dizeeblonde |
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| 06/01/2009 19:58 |
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I do understand the situation, but as Mezzanine has outlined the jist of it I will not repeat. There is more to it, but it is impossible to write it down without probably causing this to turn nasty. I will say that there are many envoys who are trying to bring about resolution in the form of a two state agreement. Chilla Hamas being Iranian backed is only a theory, they are actually a Sunni Islamist organisation ( there is more than one kind of Muslim). They are now officially elected but some nations still believe them to be terrorists.
This situation in the middle east has led to the rise of organisations such as Al Qaeda.
The idea behind the state of Israel actually started much earlier than the 2nd world war with the Balfour agreement proposed by us the British ( think it was around 1918)
Chilla Israel is taking so much flak, as if they see Hamas as a terrorist organisation, why have they invaded and begun to kill civilians, and refused journalists entry to Gaza? Also they have huge backing from America, so this means that us and France etc have to be very careful in what we say or do in this situation.
If you want to go deeper into why America is so pro Israel, there are many fundementalist Christian groups over there that belive to put it very simply that God will judge them on how they treat Jews, so they take this to mean they must support Israel whatever action they do. There are also theories that Bush is one such believer, and that contributes to the hatred the Arab world has for him.
It is a very very complex subject, I have read a few books on it, but it is a heavy subject to get your head around.
| Athena |
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| 06/01/2009 20:06 |
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I understand the History but always struggle to see how there can ever be a solution. Israel is there to stay, but is not acknowledged by Islamic neighbours.
| BEL |
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| 06/01/2009 20:24 |
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Re: I don't fully understand the Israel/Palestine 'problem'....
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Dizee,not sure about the fundamentalists...more like Free
masons...as the freemasons have always wanted to protect
Jersualem as a centre of Christian relgion.When Jersualem
was lost in the 3rd Crusade it remained in Arab hands until
11th December 1917 when General Allenby received the keys
of Jresualem from the Otterman Turks.Allenby was president
of the Anglo/Israeli archeological society,and also patron
of the British Israel World federation. As you can tell have
done quite alot of reading on this complex situation!!
| dizeeblonde |
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| 06/01/2009 20:34 |
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me too Bel, but crikey not read that far back in any depth, not an easy one to get to grips with is it? Also my daughter is studying a degree in religion and theology, so I often pester her to try and get a broader understanding of things. She has some incredible books to read, but sometimes I have to read something then read it again to take it all in.
Going slightly off subject here I have discovered there are so many religions I had never heard of.
| suejane |
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| 06/01/2009 20:45 |
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Re: I don't fully understand the Israel/Palestine 'problem'....
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My heart goes out to the children, as always the victims.How can it be that you send tanks against children?How can you fire rockets against children? Are we never to learn the lessons of the last 2 world wars?ps Zimbabwe is off the front pages, is there anyone left there do you think?
| cupcake |
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| 06/01/2009 21:04 |
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Hang on girls...you've lost me. I'm just going to go back and read it all again.
I wanted to know, basically what happened in the begining. I don't really understand what is happening now because I don't understand the root of the problem...not fully. I'll re read all that's been posted and let you know if I'm any the wiser.
Thanks to you all amyway.x
| PLASMO |
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| 06/01/2009 21:08 |
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Dizee,
What you have said makes a great deal of sense and is a very fair analysis of the situation.
However, in my opinion, the Israili's are trying to stop their citizens being rocketed by terrorists, who given the chance would do exactly the same to us in the West.
Plasmo x
| cupcake |
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| 06/01/2009 21:12 |
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could you explain Hamas to me please? Never heard of it til recently. I don't watch the TV. Don't read the papers much either ...terrible admission but I have enough grief in my own life recently and can't deal with any more. However, I would like to understand this situation more.
Dizee, you've made it all a lot more clear to me , Thanks.
| PLASMO |
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| 06/01/2009 21:16 |
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Cuppie,
Hamas is simply a terrorist organization, it is made up of Islamic Palestinian Fundamentalists their aim is to obliterate the state of Israel.
I hope that explains a little for you Cuppy.
Plasmo x
| cupcake |
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| 06/01/2009 21:22 |
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Thanks Plasmo.
Most of what I have been told I think I knew in an obscure kind of way. Just really needed to have it all clarified. Thanks to you all.
| dizeeblonde |
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| 06/01/2009 22:19 |
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Cuppy just to confuse you even more Hamas have actually been elected now in Palestine, and Israel do not recognise Palestine as a state, just as they don't recognise Israel. The main gripe in all this is Jerusalem, Palestinian refugees, and Jewish settlements.
| OzzieKez |
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| 06/01/2009 22:22 |
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Dizee,
There is a book your daughter may have:
The Book of God, The Bible as a novel by Walter Wangerin.
I think it clarifies the situation rather well........
I'm afraid it makes me very angry!
| Mayday |
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| 06/01/2009 23:30 |
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Re: I don't fully understand the Israel/Palestine 'problem'....
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The election of Hamas as the legit. government of Palastine is an example of how democracy does not always give the result the rest of the world wants!!! Which is why I have reservations about Americas(G.Bush) wish to 'create'/impose democratic states in e.g Iraq. Democracy is not always the 'best' form of government!!!for every nation.
Dizzie...you obviously have a very good background to this tragic situation. How much of todays' mess is due to the 'giving' of Palastinian lands to the Israelis back in 1945? by the then 'Allies' one of which was Britain.?
I know it is complicated now and the insight into the American right wing christian attitude to the Jews explains a lot! The Americans have always supported Israel trmendously. There is no clear right and wrong I feel but there has to be some humanitarian consideration. The Israeli army is massively strong against a relatively few terrorists. There must be a better solution then going to war....yet again!
| Mollymandy |
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| 07/01/2009 08:38 |
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I just wonder whether the timing was a little convenient as Bush was still in the White House along with his warmongering cronies. I would hope that once Obama takes over the reins, that some sort of solution will be brought to bear in this tragic war and the killing of innocent civilians.
Both Hamas extremists and Israel seem to have scant regard for the deaths of children. Shame on them both.
| chilla |
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| 07/01/2009 08:58 |
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I was out with a friend last night, who visits friends regularly in palestine. Her understanding from her palestinian friends is that both Hamas and Hezbollah are Iranian backed.
From what she said, Hamas have a rather unpleasant habit of using mosques and schools to use as a base from which to launch rocket attacks. I know this may come across as pro Israeli, which given that I understand only broadly the geopolitical situation it isn't, but the bottom line is that Hamas knew vey well that if they kept firing rockets at Israel, Israel would fight back.. It's a bit like having a neighbour that you don't like who throws rubbish over your garden fence, you may grumble for a while, but after a bit, you get to thowing his rubbish back and some of your own,. Trifle simplistic, but same principle.
There's a huge difference in the Middle Eastern mindset to that of the Western mindset ( no inference intended about which is the better) and I think it makes a very complex region even more difficult to understand as people's motivations and reactions differ in so many ways. Which doesn't mean to say that the basics don't apply.
Just too many nutters in the world,s he said intellectually!!
| PLASMO |
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| 07/01/2009 09:20 |
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Good Morning Everyone,
I respect all of your opinions on this dreadful situation, but feel that the concensus of opinion lies in the support of Palestine, an opinion I cannot share.
Plasmo x
| cupcake |
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| 07/01/2009 09:43 |
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This is all very interesting. Thanks to you all for posting.
| chilla |
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| 07/01/2009 09:57 |
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What's today's brain teaser, Cuppy? The meaning of life? Fermat's Theorum?
Plasmo, I'm definitely in the neutral camp, because there is just no way that I can ever make a really informed decision and see stupid actions made by both sides. I was trying very hard not to sound pro one or the other.
| JustJules |
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| 07/01/2009 09:59 |
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That's a very unbiased and excellent explanation but like you said, it's a very complex situation. The only thing I know is from what my father has always told me as he was in the Army based in Egypt around 1947 and that the way the Palestinians were treated by the Israelis was inhumane and appalling. The Palestinians have been virtual prisoners in their own land for years. Okay, so Hamas are a terrorist group and to be abhored but does that still give Israel the right to target innocent civilians? The IRA were terroists and did many sickening atrocities in the name of their cause but did we go in as ground troups and kill thousands of innocent people in the name of justice? It all to do with Israel wanting what they see is their land back and want to see Palestine obliterated off the face of the earth. Only my view and opinion of a very complex and dire situation.
| cupcake |
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| 07/01/2009 10:00 |
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changed my mind about my facetious remark.
Please keep posting, it's very informative.
| PLASMO |
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| 07/01/2009 10:02 |
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Chilla,
Understand totally, none of us really know the whole story of any dispute, the information derived from our news bulletins etc, is all we can base our opinions on.
The good thing about living in this country of ours is thank god we live in a democracy, and can give our opinions and thoughts. That is what freedom of speech is all about.
Plasmo xx
| JustJules |
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| 07/01/2009 10:05 |
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I agree Chilla, I wish I could put my words so succinctly as you do. The trouble is, these 'nutters' in the Middle East who can't seem to be anything but extreme in their thinking and actions and the repercutions are making the world a very unstable place and we just have to sit back and watch them blow each other up in the name of something that doesn't mean a thing to us and have to live with the consequences.
| chilla |
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| 07/01/2009 10:05 |
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Quote:
Thought we might move on to Quantum Physics if that's ok....
now I don't fully understand that either...so if you could explain please
Sure there's black holes and the electrons bounce off the quarks which makes the speed of light faster than the speed of sound. Sometimes the big particles explode and form into baby particles.
i think if you can get hold of a Clangers DVD, it will become a lot clearer.
Meaning of life, because i know you are coming to that one, be nice and do the best you can.
| bluebella |
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| 07/01/2009 10:17 |
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Re: I don't fully understand the Israel/Palestine 'problem'....
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Going back to the Gazza strip, I don't know much about the situation either but is it just a small piece of land we're talking about?
Excuse my ignorance but i just get the impression of a small piece of land so wonder why it's not just divided by the two? I know that's a very simplistic aproach, but hopefully you know what I mean.
Bluebella
| cupcake |
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| 07/01/2009 10:24 |
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Thanks bluebella...I would like that to be clarified as well...
| chilla |
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| 07/01/2009 10:38 |
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You see Bluebella you are the perfect reason why the w&h ladies should be in charge of, well, evberything. Imagine the meeting room, 'OK, I propose that we stop bickering and split it into two thereby saving future generations from being imprisoned by their history and being locked into an endless cycle of misery and bloodshed, and stopping the slaughter of innocents.' All the w & h women would agree and everything would be sorted.
If you see Dizzee's first post she has outlined the history of the Gaza strip. Besides a number of interested parties claiming it as rightfully theirs, I should imagine that there are better places in terms of infrastructure, access to sea ports etc and that alone would be a reason why there will be no compromise. The Gaza strip is about 25 miles long and around 5 miles wide.
Just Jules, I think the difference between the situation in N Ireland and palestine is that on the whole (I'm sure someone will be along to say differently) neither paarty consistently used civilians as a shield to cover their rocket launch sites in the way that happens in palestine. Therefore if the Israelis decide to take out a rocket launch site then that means they take out a lot of civilian innocents as well. That isn't an excuse or condemnation for any activity, just an explanation.
| bluebella |
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| 07/01/2009 10:47 |
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Chilla, I have read the posts (only skimmed though as I'm at work) and what i still don't understand is how did this strip of land come to be on it's own? I imagaine it's joined on to another country/state or is it divided by a sea or something?
Sorry, as I said I really don't know much about it but now it's been brought up I'd like to find out.
Thanks,
Bluebella
| OzzieKez |
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| 07/01/2009 10:56 |
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Well for centuries the whole region was Bedouin land. Because it was considered by a completely different culture, that the land was not being correctly utilised, it was annexed as a place to put the Jews displaced by WWII. Hollywood filmakers are predominantly Jewish, so that is the story we are most familiar with.
| cupcake |
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| 07/01/2009 11:02 |
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Chilla, do I understand this correctly? The Palestinians deliberately place their own people around their weapon sites? (or the weapon sites where there are lots of civilians) Deliberately putting them in danger? Is that right?
| chilla |
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| 07/01/2009 11:07 |
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Indeed it has been Bedouin land and it has also been inhabited by Jews for a long long time. The Gaza strip area was the busyest trading port for the Jews back in the fourth century. They have been thrown off it by the romans, egyptians and arious arab factions. Likewise, the Palestinians can claim equal rights to it given that they have had settlements there for centruries. I honestly do not think there is an answer as to whose it is, because as soon as one person pops up and can say it belongs to X because they were there in xBC, someone will counter with an earlier date for the other side. Basically it's been inhabited by both for a long time.
It adjoins the coast and is bordered by Egypt and Israel.
| PLASMO |
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| 07/01/2009 11:08 |
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Cupcake,
You have hit the nail right on the head.
Plasmo x
| JustJules |
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| 07/01/2009 11:08 |
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Alledgedly Cupcake but we don't know for certain.
| chilla |
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| 07/01/2009 11:16 |
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there is a lot of evidence to show that rockets are being fired from civilian sites. You don't have to work in the defence industry to know that with the satellite capabilities that are available, it is very easy to identify the sites from which rockets are launched. My Palestinian travelling friend despairs at the way certain elements can be casual about life. She has made a lot of palestinian friends and describes them as warm and generous people, but as usual it doesn't take much for a few to polarise opinion.
Who were the first people to use suicide bombers? If not the Palestinians, they have certainly been at the forefront of their use. The idea that suicide bombers are idealists purely and simply is usually wrong insofar as they are very heavily groomed by others. I couldn't take someone and groom him/her to be a suicide bomber no matter what the cause.
i think i'm getting a headache
| OzzieKez |
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| 07/01/2009 11:16 |
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A UN school to which palestinians had fled was bombed today. It was alleged that amongst the dead (women and children) there were known members of Hamas......It was also alleged that shells had been fired from the school. UN sources have said that they are unaware of any evidence to support these claims.
Terrorists or Freedom Fighters?
| chilla |
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| 07/01/2009 11:20 |
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in any war, Ozzie, everyone is a terrorist. Freedom and fighter have always seemed to be a paradox. But I get what you mean. It depresses the life out of me to think this is going to be continuing for decades to come.
| OzzieKez |
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| 07/01/2009 11:25 |
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I agree Chilla, there is no solution. It is just so sad.
| cupcake |
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| 07/01/2009 11:31 |
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Did 'Israel' exist in any way before 1947....anywhere, or was it a new creation?
| Snowy1066 |
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| 07/01/2009 11:43 |
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I don't profess to understand this problem at all, and I thank all the ladies who have posted on this, with some knowledge of the situation, be you pro Israel or Pro Palestine. I am very impressed and just wish I knew more. Like Cupcake I will have to read over this thread a few times before it all sinks in.
I did just want to say I saw the Israeli Prime Minister being interviewed on Sky News this morning, and felt he sincerely wanted the conflict to stop. He said how could he sit back a let Hamas keep shelling Israel and do nothing about it? He also said that Hamas were hiding shells and amunition in schools and kindergartens around the Gaza strip, and using women and children as human shields.
I am not taking sides here, just saying what I heard, until I understand it all better I will sit on the fence.
But a very interesting thread all the same.
| chilla |
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| 07/01/2009 11:49 |
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Quote:
Did 'Israel' exist in any way before 1947....anywhere, or was it a new creation?
Yes and no, depending on how you define Israel. That's another reason why it is incredibly complicated and you end up going back thousands of years and borders changing, conflicts that mean lands have changed hands. So I'm ducking out of this one now.
Cuppy, you owe me a paracetomol
| cupcake |
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| 07/01/2009 11:54 |
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Can you just tell me who Hezbollah are....
then you can go and lay down....
| chilla |
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| 07/01/2009 12:08 |
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i'm going to fall out with you soon Cuppy
Hezbollah , which the Party of God,are a Lebanese based terrorist (or freedom fighters) organisation that have definitely been backed by Iran, who have provided them with personnel and military equipment. They are Shi'ite Muslims. hamas are Sunnis. They came to prominence in the mid eighties when Israel was controlling part of Lebanon - remember Beirut? Hezbollah are after a theocratic state - I think they are more fundamentalist than Hamas.
I've change my requirements from paracetomol to Vodka. And what's worse is that Diz, will appear, throw her usual informed opinion into the mix and then I'll get embroiled and I need a rest.
| cupcake |
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| 07/01/2009 12:14 |
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Hmm.
what is a theocratic state?
| BEL |
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| 07/01/2009 12:31 |
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Basically..goverment by God.
| chilla |
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| 07/01/2009 12:32 |
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A state/country which governs according to the tenets of faith. think iran.
| cupcake |
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| 07/01/2009 12:47 |
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Oh goodness.. Ok...I see now.
Well, Thanks to you all, specially you Chilla...sorry about the headache though!
It's been really informative and very interesting.
cuppy.x
| JustJules |
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| 07/01/2009 12:49 |
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Well I've learnt a lot from this girls (Dizee and Chilla, I'm so impressed with your knowledge and the way you expressed your views and the facts so brilliantly, I envy you being able to do so as I can't always put things across as well as I would like), so thanks and thanks that we can discuss this tragic situation like sensible adults though some of us have differing opinions but that's what true democracy is about. Chilla, have a well earned rest now!
| PLASMO |
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| 07/01/2009 13:24 |
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Hi Ladies,
I have to agree with you Jules, what an interesting topic, to debate in a diplomatic, but positive way, all with different opinions, I for one really enjoy these more serious issues.
Thankyou Ladies.
Plasmo x
| cupcake |
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| 07/01/2009 14:05 |
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I've been thinking..
Regarding the West being involved in the 'relocation' of the Jews after liberating them from the POW camps. Presumably the West were involved because they were also involved in the war? The West could hardly just say oh well off you all go then and find somewhere to settle.
Ozzie, I think it was, said that the land they now occupy wasn't thought to be properly managed and that is why they were settled there.
Presumably everyone would agree that after the Holocaust every assistance possible needed to be offered to the Jewish people in order to help them rebuild their lives?
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but with out it again presumable everyone thought they were choosing the best possible option?
Correct me if I'm wrong!!!..No really, I know you will, but please do!
| dizeeblonde |
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| 07/01/2009 14:24 |
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ladies have just logged on again, what a fantastic thread, thanks Cuppy, I can honestly say I believe this to be the best topic/ debate I have ever seen on the forum, and I am amazed as this is probably potentially the most inflamatory topic I think that could ever be posted on here. Everyone has been reasoned and logical in making their posts.
I will add, that sadly I do not believe I will see the solution in my lifetime, and probably neither will my children, because even if Isreal/Palestine agree to accept a 2 state solution in principal,I can't forsee a time when there will ever be an agreement over the Dome of the Rock at Temple Mount in Jerusalem. This I feel will always be the stumbling point, and as a lot of places in this area are important to Christians as well, let's just hope they never get involved as well.
If you have a look at this link it shows how intertwined the sacred sites are to both sides.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/middle_east/2000/holy_places/default.stm
| Spanishlady |
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| 07/01/2009 14:40 |
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thanks so much for this thread I feel more confident to discuss this situation now , before I was all for comdemming the Israilis but no see that there are always twwo sides to a story
| bluebella |
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| 07/01/2009 14:51 |
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I just googled Gazza strip and was reading a BBC site that explains it a bit clearer. Sorry, I can't do links.
It says Israel was formed 1948 - I never knew that, I thought it had always been there.
Also it's occupied solely by refugees - I didn't know that either. They live is awful conditions.
I've enjoyed reading this thread, it's taught me a lot.
Bluebella
| cupcake |
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| 07/01/2009 15:04 |
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Thanks again bluebella. That was very interesting. I'm going to look at the area on google now.
| chilla |
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| 07/01/2009 15:49 |
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following on from your query on wether it was only sensible to re-locate the Jews after the Holocaust. Yes, no and maybe.
As we said before, if israel existed before is quite a moot point. What is sure is that there were palestinians there who unsurprisingly felt pretty hacked off at having to 'share' their home and were pretty much subsumed into the state of Israel as it became then.
Now following on from the Holocaust, the Jews that were liberated from the camps would have been German Jews, French Jews, Polish Jews, Hungarian Jews, Austrian Jews, Russian Jews, etc etc, etc. Not that I am saying it would be an attractive proposition, but should they have been re-located to their original country? I'm not very up on any religious faith, but i think the Jewish population have always wanted a homeland that they can refer to as their own and the area that is modern Israel has been their home for centuries as well as the Palestinians.
Cuppy, ar you secretly formulating a peace deal here? Nobel prize in the offing? Don't forget your research assistants in the acceptance speech.
| Mayday |
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| 07/01/2009 15:51 |
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This has been really educational! Thanks Chilla and Dizzie(Primarily). It really is an impossible situation but was not helped by the annexing of Palestinian lands for the Jews to settle I feel. The allies who made that decision were,I think, the victors? of WW2.Britain, America and Russia. And yes, I believe Jerusalem and The Dome of the Rock is at the heart of it all. I don't quite understand why except each religion claims it as a Most Holy Place.
What a muddle! But well debated here . Thanks girls. I must ask my son who is a political scientist(Middle Eastern studies) to explain it all to me in his terms!!
Mayday
| cupcake |
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| 07/01/2009 15:51 |
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So the land that is now Israel was always of significance to the Jews? It wasn't picked out randomly?
| Mayday |
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| 07/01/2009 15:56 |
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Chilla....sorry I posted mine before I saw your last one. Thanks for that explanation.....as you say....a moot point really....and why there is no clear cut fair solution!
| Mayday |
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| 07/01/2009 16:00 |
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Cuppy.....I was told by a 'historian' that some of the land was actually 'sold' by some of the Arab tribal leaders to the Allies for the Jews. Not sure whether that is true or not. But if so they could be said to be the authors of their own situation now.? Of course they were(Are?) a tribal people so no central government I suppose so what one leader did was not neccesarily agreed by anyone else! Any comment Chilla/Dizzie?
| cupcake |
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| 07/01/2009 16:16 |
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Chilla, just want to add that it was from a humanitarian point of view that I originally started this thread and therefore a wish to be better informed.
There was a picture in this morning's papers of a small boy cowering against a wall. He was clearly terrified and whatever the rights and wrongs I cannot bear to see the innocent children suffering. It prompted me to try to understand the situation properly.
Thank you all so much....please continue to inform me!
| chilla |
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| 07/01/2009 16:21 |
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i think that is the angle that most of us come from, there are some very distressing pictures coming out of Gaza at the moment.
Heard of the Western Wall in Jerusalem, Cuppy. One of the most important religious sites for the Jews. It is all that remains of a temple wall destroyed by the Romans. Jerusalem holds the tomb of David and Bethlehem has the tomb of Rachel, married to Jacob, not to mention a host of other religious sites. So yes they've hanging around there for a while. Given an option, they would have gone for Provence or Tuscany - sorry being a bit frivolous there.
Mayday - can't answer that one, but I wouldn't be suprised. Even now, places like Saudi, it's not what you know, but who and if they are family/tribe that gets you the top jobs. guess that is one for your smart son - sounds a fascinating subject to study.
Right I'm switching off and going home shortly for the vodka that Cuppy's sending over
| cupcake |
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| 07/01/2009 16:26 |
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Chilla! Thanks you have been a real star...I will def be mentioning you if I ever get a prize for anything and should I ever be lucky enough to meet you the vodka is definitely on me!
| dizeeblonde |
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| 07/01/2009 16:27 |
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As I mentioned before the idea of the a Jewish state was not thought up because of world war two, it was implemented then primarily because of the Holocaust.A policy of what is know as Zionism had been around for a long time, and as I mentioned before Britain came on board this idea with the Balfour agreement.I've tried to find something that sums it up simply. This I think gives a simple synopsis -
Taken from The Economist ---
The birth of the state of Israel was the fulfilment of the Zionist movement, conceived in the 19th century to create a homeland for Jews. Ancient Jews had scattered around the world following their conquest and occupation by the Romans and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. In the 1880s Jews seeking escape from persecution in Europe began migrating en masse to Palestine, then an Arabic-speaking part of the Ottoman empire; by 1914 Palestine’s Jewish population had more than doubled. In 1917, as British forces were despatching the Ottomans in the first world war, Britain issued the Balfour Declaration, stating support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine without “prejudice” to the rights of the Palestinian Arabs. After the war, Palestine was placed under a British mandate and, as Zionist immigration increased, violence flared between its Jewish and Arab communities.
After the Holocaust, pressure grew for the international recognition of a Jewish state, and the UN proposed the partition of the Palestine mandate into two states, one Jewish and one Arab. The Arab states rejected partition and invaded Palestine as soon as the British withdrew. On May 14th 1948, the state of Israel was declared, with David Ben-Gurion as its first prime minister. The Arab invasion was unsuccessful and more than 700,000 Palestinian Arabs were expelled during the fighting. In 1949 Israel signed armistice agreements with its neighbours. However the Arab governments and the Palestinian refugees refused to recognise Israel’s existence as a legitimate country. The region remained unstable. To prop up the beleaguered republic, the Jewish diaspora poured money into Israel, and in the late 1960s the United States became its principal financial and political supporter. Within a few years, the young country had developed an efficient agrarian and technological society, and further strengthened its military superiority over the surrounding Arab countries.
Israel demonstrated its new might in 1956 when it invaded the Egyptian Sinai (with British and French collusion), after Egypt’s nationalisation of the Suez Canal. American intervention forced Israel’s withdrawal. War returned in 1967, when Egypt, Syria and Jordan massed forces to challenge Israel. In a pre-emptive strike, Israel smashed its enemies’ forces in just six days and captured the West Bank, the Gaza strip, the Golan Heights and the Sinai peninsula. As the Israeli government moved to build Jewish settlements in the occupied territories, the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO), led by Yasser Arafat, took the lead role in fighting the Israeli occupation.
In October 1973, on the Jewish holy day of Yom Kippur, Egypt and Syria launched a surprise attack in the Sinai and the Golan Heights. The Israelis were not defeated but Arab honour was restored, paving the way for peace negotiations under American auspices. In 1979 Egypt signed a peace agreement with Israel, and in 1994 Jordan did the same. But only in the early 1990s, after years of intifada (popular uprising), did Israel and the Palestinians begin to speak of a peace process. Despite the establishment of a Palestinian Authority and the hand-over of parts of the West Bank and the Gaza strip to its control, Palestinian terrorism, Israel’s harsh occupation policies, the accelerated construction of Jewish settlements, the plight of the refugees and the disputed status of Jerusalem all continued to block progress. A second, bloodier intifada began in 2000, and peace remains elusive
| BEL |
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| 07/01/2009 16:30 |
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The Western Wall is the the' Wailing Wall' which is all that
is left of Solomon's Temple....have visited this,very
sad ,moving place.
| BEL |
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| 07/01/2009 16:36 |
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Thanks Dizee,and the Economist.Put in simple terms.
| cupcake |
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| 07/01/2009 16:38 |
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Dizee, thank you for finding that. It helps to have the real background.
Again, thank you also for your input...I'm very pleased to be so much better informed than I was this morning.
| BEL |
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| 07/01/2009 16:54 |
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Cuppy, the Jews were not in POW camps,they were in
Concentration camps...'death camps'.
| cupcake |
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| 07/01/2009 16:57 |
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Sorry, my mistake. I do know that of course. (My D has been to Auschwitz and my son was stationed at Bergen Bergen.)
So sorry for my mistake.
| Mayday |
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| 07/01/2009 17:13 |
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Thanks for that very succinct and factual report from the Economist Dizzie. What is missing of course is the difficulties caused by the very different cultural outlooks and belief systems of the Arabs(Palastinians) and the Jews.
But it does point up what a muddle the whole region has gone through and it will take years yet to sort it out. It is difficult for us with definite borders to our little island to understand why different peoples can have claims to the same bit of land. I suppose the Scots and Welsh border battles would be the nearest thing we have seen? But they were conducted before the horrific weaponry now available to warring factions. And one of our main exports is armaments!!!!But that is another thread I think?!!
| BEL |
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| 07/01/2009 18:37 |
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Thanks Cuppy for starting this very infomative thread,has
certainly given us all food for thought.Bel
| nowcemsi |
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| 07/01/2009 18:54 |
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So sad, biblically the Jews where Gods chosen race
so why are they trying to anihalate each other?
sigh
| nowcemsi |
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| 07/01/2009 20:49 |
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I asked a friend on another forum to explain to me what was going on: her words not mine:
there are many things you dont know about gaza . Gaza was a big ghetto crying for help .
Yes the Illegal Settlers have left in 2005 BUT ALL the exits of Gaza have been Shut firmly and Israel has the keys . Rafah on egypt side is also Locked up on Israel recommendations
- Gaza fishermen are daily targeted sometimes killed by Israeli gunships
Gaza can not import or export anything because the gates are open once or twice a month when it suits israel s mood . so their produce most of the time rots (vegetables , fruits , flowers they were hoping to send to europe )
People in gaza can not travel freely for work , study , medical treatment only for extreme cases ( 300 have been killed in the last 6 months because of that )
there is no electricty , there is no fuel (they buy it from israel cant buy it from anyone else )
there is a lack of water .
the sewage system is about to burst and sinks homes since there is no electricy to clean it
AID has stopped totally for the last 2 Years , people work with NO Salaries for 2 years because people voted for hamas . so bills are unpaid and people have sold
everything they owned to survive .
some people are burning their furniture to keep warm
the Bakeries are out of flour , and people are linning up outside for hours to get some bread .
the UNRWA lack funds (and Arabs have been warned by America not to help or their banks will be on a red list ) and Oxfam says the situation is catastrophic
| OzzieKez |
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| 07/01/2009 21:43 |
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Hi Cuppy,
Just woken up....be gentle with me.
Bedouins were/ are nomads who live a life in which they have a "range" of living sites. They herd their animals and, I guess, wander the desert.
I suppose my viewpoint on this is basically, I am not a Christian. I believe that Abraham hearing God's voice, after not eating or sleeping ......after slitting the throats of his flock etc....being told by god 'To your descendants I give this land,from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites' ........was a schizophrenic episode. I'd like to see how far he'd get with that one today...... There's also the story that in their 80's he and his wife Sarah were told 'by "God" that 'I give you and your descendants all the land of Canaan - an everlasting possession!'. When a child was not forthcoming Sarah ordered her slave Hagar to lie with her husband and bear him a child. Mission accomplished, Ishmael.....then Sarah (90) discovers she is pregnant. Abraham by this time is 100. So Sarah orders Hagar and her child to be cast out to the desert. This is thought to be the origins of the Bedouins. I would have to say that was a very unkind act from people professing to be bearers of God's word. Isaac is born.
To which lot of descendants did "God" refer?
Religion is the thing that it is impossible to overcome. Therein lies my belief that Israel should not exist....why weren't the Jews sent back to their countries of origin? I doubt anybody will agree with me but it will make no difference the whole conflict is beyond reason now............
| issi |
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| 08/01/2009 01:03 |
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I don't want to be too simplistic about this but if we had a neighbouring country intent on destroying us we would look very badly at a government who did not go in hard. The tragedy is in the suffering of the people on both sides but I believe I have got it right in that if there was a compromise Israel would have reached it a long time ago. Israel is the only "westernised" nation in the Middle East and I fear it may be the only barrier between the forces that hate the west and the rest of us.
| OzzieKez |
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| 08/01/2009 01:07 |
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That's a scary thought Issi!
| JustJules |
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| 08/01/2009 11:57 |
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That's exactly what I know of the situation Nowcemsi but couldn't put it into words properly yesterday and that is precisly why nearly all the news seems to be biased towards Israel being in the wrong.
| cupcake |
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| 08/01/2009 12:12 |
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Quote:
all the news seems to be biased towards Israel being in the wrong.
Sorry. This has confused me again.
Can you explain what you mean about the news being biased? IS Israel in the wrong? Or is Palestine? Or is it always just going to be just anyone's opinion one way or the other?
| chilla |
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| 08/01/2009 12:51 |
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I was avoiding this Cuppy. Or trying to.
it does depend a lot on your viewpoint. Being a typical Gemini, I can really sit on the fence, see both sides and as we discussed yesterday, it is a really complex subject to get to the rights and wrongs of the situation.
I think the bias mentioned is referring to the fact that Israel are going in so heavy.
Nowcemsi's post about the treatment of the Palestinians in Gazaover the last 30- 40 years, is accurate in sofar as it reflects the fact that Israel when it hits, tends to hit hard. They do still control the ports and the entry in and out of the territory. The exception being the border with Egypt to the south. Sorry, this is the edited bit, there is no doubt over the years that the Palestinians have suffered horribly in what amount to camps as a result of Israeli response to events.
Ultimately it boils down to the fact that Israel are bigger, have bigger toys and therefore more control. In both sides there is plenty of blame to apportioned. Israel has gone in very heavy compared to a few rockets been lobbed over, on the other hand they put up with rockets for a long time before responding. Hamas cannot say they did not know this would happen; the rest of us were just waiting for Israel to get fed up. Poke a bear with a stick and it will growl.
| OzzieKez |
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| 08/01/2009 12:52 |
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Seems a bit like the latter Cuppy!
| dizeeblonde |
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| 08/01/2009 13:19 |
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Cuppy I did not give my opinion of whose side I am on, as you asked for facts not sides, so have refrained until now. I will get off the fence now, and it will not surprise, though it will anger many, and I will probably get a nasty backlash but this clip - yes it can be called propaganda but it will sum up what I think........... and I feel passionately about this, so therefore I think i should have enough courage in my conviction to not hide my view.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QoC2tGfO0Jc&feature=related
| cupcake |
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| 08/01/2009 13:21 |
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Yes, I think so Ozzie. And thanks Chilla. Hope your head is okay today by the way!!!
I'll do the fence sitting thing as well I think.
| chilla |
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| 08/01/2009 13:26 |
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Why shouldn't you air your opinions? I stated my case on the travellers thread and Mollymandy stated her opposite one to mine. I think she's a lovely woman, but just holds other ideas.
As I said being a genuine fence-sitter on this one, I'll try and keep out of this because to answer anything in that video, will then make me sound pro Israel, which I'm neither one way or the other. I just genuinely think they are as bad as each other in terms of viciousness, it's just that israel has the bigger toys.
| cupcake |
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| 08/01/2009 13:37 |
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Dizee. Yes, you are right I didn't want opinions because although I didn't FULLY understand the problem, I did realise roughly what it was all about . I really wanted facts and backgrounds and everyone has been really helpful with those.
I purposely said no sides because it is such an emotive subjet and I didn't want to get bogged down in opinions. I realised though that some people were on one side or another.
you have every right to say what you think, as does anyone else. Don't apologise. No one needs to do that.
I'm just grateful for all the help and information I've been given.
| PLASMO |
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| 08/01/2009 13:43 |
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Dizee,
As I have said before, I totall respect your opinion, however after seeing the first few minutes of the clip, it seems like a good case of proper gander to me, I daresay there might be another clip on You Tube, with the exact same view from the Israelis.
I am being totally honest here ladies, Im not sitting on the fence, I do sympathise with the Israelis, I have personal reasons for saying this of which I would rather not go into on the forum.
Plasmo x
| dizeeblonde |
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| 08/01/2009 13:53 |
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Plasmo I too repect your opinion, I have a close male friend who feels just as strongly as me, but he is in support of Israel. We often debate the issue very vocally, but have established the need to agree to disagree and respect each others point of view.I think it is good thing to have an opinion on such a big issue, and there is no way we will all agree, nor can we be expected to on something so difficult.
| PLASMO |
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| 08/01/2009 13:58 |
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Dizee,
In my opinion you are one of the most intelligent ladies on this forum, and I have always respected any view that you have, and always read with great interest whatever you have to say, and this subject is no exception.
Like you, I think it is a really healthy thing to do, to discuss and even though our opinions differ we still remain friends. I do hope so.
Dizee, was it Man City or United that beat Derby yesterday, OH mumbled something this morning but didnt quite hear what he said?
Plasmo x
| chilla |
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| 08/01/2009 14:01 |
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Plasmo, shhhhhh. Dizzee won't fall out with you about Palestine, but don't upset her. It was her team, but you know, they didn't win.
| dizeeblonde |
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| 08/01/2009 14:05 |
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Plasmo, it was the other way around
Derby beat Manchester United, but they still have to play us at home as it is a 2 legged match. Manchester City were knocked out of th Fa cup at the weekend by a lower division team, so PatsyW and I will be hoping for better results in our next fixtures.
| dizeeblonde |
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| 08/01/2009 14:10 |
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Chilla was a bit annoyed at our performance last night, but have forgotten all that now as I have just seen the wreckage of Ronaldo's ferrari, he crashed near Manchester airport, am just relieved he wasn't hurt
| chilla |
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| 08/01/2009 15:03 |
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the only way you know that could have been a Ferrari is because Ronaldo was in it. well, he wouldn't be in a mondeo, would he?
| Mollymandy |
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| 08/01/2009 15:17 |
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Whilst not wishing to take sides - it does seem to me that modern warfare does kill civilians as collateral damage (think that was Cheney's comment). Sad that wars these days are no longer fought by soldiers of opposing countries on a battlefield - not progress at all.
That being said saw that deaths of Palestinians was in the hundreds and that of Israel 10 - with 6 of those being military casualties.
Personally think they both need their heads knocking together but religious wars rumble on for centuries and truly believe that this one will not be shortlived. Worrying to see that missiles are now being launched from Lebanon in an escalation of the conflict - who next? Syria, Egypt and ultimately Iran...
I visited Israel about 5 years ago as they were participating in a couple of our clinical trials - biggest problem was getting out again - was questioned for ages and began to worry whether I would miss my flight! Was interesting to discuss the situation with Boaz from the company I was visiting and how he just regarded conflicts as a part of life. Lovely man.
I should have guessed Chilla : fellow Gemini! Personally would prefer to see Ronaldo on his bike
| cupcake |
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| 08/01/2009 16:01 |
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maybe Dizee, you could now explain the offside rule to me.
Now THAT I don't understand at all!!!!
| RunGirl |
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| 08/01/2009 21:23 |
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This has been a really interesting thread; I don't pretend to understand all of the situation fully but I cannot see how the sistuation between Palestine and Israel will ever be resolved. I just don't understand the role of the UN; they seem to be completely ineffective.
I agree with others that it is a very sensitive and emotive subject - my OH and I completely disagree on who is right and who is wrong and we have opposing views and feel very passionate about them.
Regardless of the rights or wrongs, it's a truly terrible situation and the death and trauma to innocent civilians is heartbreaking. Especially the children - what a terrible situation to be growing up in x
| Mayday |
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| 08/01/2009 23:22 |
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Much of the 'blame'? must be given to those regimes supplying the dreadful arms to these conflicting nations. America seems to have supported Israel and supplied arms to them and Iran seems to be mentioned to be supplying arms to the Palestinians. I cannot accept that Israel needs to use such massive force against the smaller weaker Palestinians.
The rights and wrongs seem to be impossible to disentangle.The only hope is in a 'cease fire' agreement if one can be reached .
| BEL |
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| 08/01/2009 23:38 |
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We had rockets fired at us during WW2...did we sit back and take it?No way we fought back,and many civilians died in Germany because of this....am firmly behind the Israelis in this.
| OzzieKez |
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| 09/01/2009 09:27 |
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I doubt the footage on the news tonight was propaganda!!!! An absolute disgrace!
| ChrissiFi |
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| 09/01/2009 13:46 |
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From what I remember from my history O level Israel was effectively created by world powers to be a home for the Jews without any thought about how this would be seen by those who already lived there. (Think some of the land was also promised to Arab states at some point too).
I can understand how the Palestinians feel - imagine a people who have some residents in the UK, others throughout the world (eg Romany Gypsies) were promised a strip of land along the Solent as their home. You would understand the locals getting mightily upset (more so when the new comers start to push them out).
I don't think there will ever be a solution but listening to the Jeremy Vine show earlier this week one caller made a very good point..."There's already a holocaust museum, in 50 years time there will be a similar museum dedicated to the Palestinians who have been killed by the Israeli Jews". It was a very good point - no matter what is thrown at them targetting sites where civilians are known to be sheltering is not right. Does anyone know if the Geneva convention has been breached?
| chilla |
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| 09/01/2009 13:50 |
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I believe that various organisations believe that the convention has been breached. If some of the reports that we are hearing are true, then it would seem that it had been breached.
| Mollymandy |
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| 09/01/2009 14:16 |
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If these stories are substantiated (and it would appear they come direct from a UN department), it truly is reprehensible.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7819492.stm
| Mayday |
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| 09/01/2009 15:22 |
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This story was denied on todays' World at one(Radio 4) Mollymandy. We are at the mercy and veracity of the media as always in these stories.I think our reporters are so brave to stay in these areas of conflict to try to give us the events as they happen but it must be difficult sometimes to be certain what is happening in the turmoil of war.
| Mollymandy |
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| 09/01/2009 16:11 |
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Have been reading Jeremy Bowen's diary blog on the BBC website - agree they are indeed brave and he does this sort of thing so well. Thought he was well out of his comfort zone when on BBC Breakfast and must have driven his producers mad...
Good news if it was in fact untrue...
| cupcake |
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| 09/01/2009 17:19 |
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Hmm yes, well. I've just been listening to the news on radio 4. I do understand far more now about the why's and the wherefore's than I did a few days ago. But....a few more questions please...
Presumably when Israel was 'created' in 1947/8 the Jews who went there were from the concentration camps. So they had suffered terribly and were now being offered a new start albeit in another country. Is that what happened? And also now that Israel is 60 odd years old lots of the Jews in Israel have been born and bred there? It would be the only home they have ever known.
I have more questions but I would prefer to ask them in turn so I can be clear in my mind.
| Mayday |
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| 09/01/2009 18:17 |
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I think some of the problem is about the fact that although the Jews were allocated a certain area of land in 1947/8 they have adopted expansionist policies as they don't think the Palestinians have a right to be there at all so they have grabbed more land...as in 1967.....and have 'settled' land which was Palestinian land so naturally the Arabs have attacked Israel on an ongoing basis. Israel now claim they are obliged to defend themselves....which sounds reasonable from their standpoint. Basically...as far as I can see....neither nation thinks the other should exist or is entitled to the disputed land! What a mess! I am sure someone will correct me if the above is not the true picture?
| BEL |
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| 09/01/2009 19:38 |
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Cupcake you are right most were from the concentration camps,and their G/children,GG/children are now fighting this war.
Mayday,Israel has been attacked by the surrounding Arab countries right from the word go(1948)onwards.The 6-day war in 1967 enabled them to annex Golan Heights,and the Gaza strip from which they had been constantly shelled.They will
never give up the Golan Heights which overlooks the State of Israel,and is no good as settlement in any case.They were quite accepatable to let the Palestines live peacefully in Gaza.Hamas however,will not give up their considerable rocket attacks on Israel,even after the 2008 peace agreement,indeed Hamas has stepped up the numbers,and range of the rockets,which has lead to the present situation.
| Mayday |
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| 09/01/2009 20:10 |
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The BBC has a Q&A page on the news page which is interesting'
' BBC News website looks at the background to the conflict in Gaza.'
Go to BBC .com and look at the news section.
| chilla |
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| 09/01/2009 21:04 |
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The Golan Heights has an Israeli presence in it. It is a calm safe area in which to be a Palestinian. You can either read that as the Palestinians are too scared to do anything, or that Hamas don't have the influence there depending on your viewpoint.
both of them IMO, do have the right to be there; both 'tribes' have lived there on and off for centuries, millenia even. And both of them again IMO, are as bad as each other. The Israelis are indeed racking up a body count of innocents, but so have Hamas in the past as they have sent their suicide bombers into restaurants packed with families and into bus stations. The attacks by the suicide bombers was one of the main reasons why the border with Gaza was put into what is in effect a lockdown.
I have sympathy with both the ordinary Palestinians and Israelis; none with the fools that sit safe and watch whilst they both pursue a policy that not only destabilises two countries, but an entire region which is unstable enough.
Good heavens Cuppy, this thread is going to run and run. Can't wait to see what your next topic is!
| cupcake |
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| 09/01/2009 21:08 |
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I've been listening to the news agian tonight.
Chilla , I agree with everything you have said above so I won't try to better it.
| cupcake |
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| 09/01/2009 21:10 |
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Hark at me! 'Won't try to better it!' Huh as if I could! Thanks again Chilla.
| chilla |
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| 09/01/2009 21:51 |
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Don't put yourself down Cuppy - I've already e-mailed Baz, sorry President - elect Obama to the rest of you, and put your name forward to lead the Middle East peace process. If you could just finalise your proposals and I'll get him to pick you up next Tuesday as I know he's keen to make a start.
Chilla x
Is your lawn big enough to land a helicopter on?
| PLASMO |
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| 09/01/2009 22:04 |
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Chilla,
Thank you so much for your input on this really interesting and provocative debate.
Everyone's point of view has interested me, and like you all I certainly have my own opinions. The situation in that area of the Middle East continues, and will, long after we have all left this world.
Yourself and Dizee, enlightened, educated, and gave us all room for thought, all adding up to why this forum is such a good place to be.
I would also like to thank Cuppy, who always makes a point of getting us all thinking, and using all of that good old grey matter. Thankyou.
Plasmo x
| Sar |
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| 09/01/2009 22:14 |
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Very thought provoking and interesting - as well as great humour - excellent.
A while ago i invested in an 'Atlas of World History', which whilst obviously not the most in depth guide, does give timelines, shows changes to boundaries etc etc. It has been an extremely useful book that i regularly refer to when trying to follow or get to the bottom of such long standing issues.
I loved history at school and have an A level in it....but why was it mostly about the Henrys/first world war etc. and less about comtemporary issues that help make sense of some of todays problems (ok so i know WW1 does to an extent, but ...)
Anyway having gone on....i would recommend such a guide.
Sar x
| OzzieKez |
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| 10/01/2009 02:42 |
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The thing is that both the Israelis and the Palestinians had the same father ......literally.
Israel itself is used as a kind of Jewish finishing school. It is considered a duty - particularly by Orthodox Jews to send their children for a year's stint on a Kibbutz. I have met Sabra ....who detest this practice and do not consider themselves to be "cut from the same cloth"...... as the wealthy Jews who do this.
So there are divisions of thought among the Jewish people as well. The Jewish politician - who's name escapes me - who was assassinated fairly recently was considered too moderate! These people are fuelled by donations from Zionists all over the world who don't actually have to live with the situation.
So very sad for all those caught in the cross-fire. There were figures released recently; Israel had lost 3 civilians - The Palestinians - 380........ Why did the USA decline to vote in the recent UN security vote for condemnation?....Shabott Shalom?
| chattycathy |
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| 10/01/2009 05:20 |
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Morning girls,I really admire you all for your knowledge on this kind of thing...I'm really not up on whats happening as I tend to bury my head sometimes...I'm not stupid as I know awful things happen all over the world & I do try to read & listen,my take on things are...a lot of lives have been lost...it doesnt matter to me how it happened or why it happened because if you really think about it life is life...
Bless them who through Israel/Palestine problems who has lost anyone...
Cathy...
| Mayday |
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| 11/01/2009 23:12 |
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Gosh!!! I have just had an 'in-depth' skype conversation with my son(Political scientist/Middle eastern studies)who is teaching in a university in America. I have put so many questions to him and got lots of answers but as he says....'There is no quick easy straightforward way to explain all the politics and processes that have led us to where we are' The situation as is certainly goes a long way back but our British government of the time is not blameless for the muddle as we apparently'left them to it' after the second world war even though it was plain that the Palestinians were not accepting the Jewish settlement on what they considered (and had been)their land.
As to any reasoned settlement now? Apparently what happens is that the 'reasonable' elements from both sides will sit down and talk but when, any settlement seems near, the extremeist factions on either side will commit an atrocity to stir things up again and prevent a peace settlement. So basically it is down to the extremists on both sides keeping the warring going.
It is so complex though as to be beyond explanation here. So many 'outside interests' have been involved too...I wouldn't know where to start. It needs study to degree standard to understand it all.
Certainly It leaves me sitting firmly on the fence as to the rights and wrongs. Both sides have legitimate rights and share equal wrongs. They are not even 'monocultures'. There are factions within each 'state'. On a humanitarian scale though one has to feel that the Israelis are being very heavy handed....with the benefit of weaponry supplied mainly by America.
Well....I don't know that this has added anything to 'our' discussion but it has helped me to realise why we are a very long way from any setttlement yet.....if ever.
Oil and Trade routes came into it somewhere too....surprise surprise!!
Off to bed now. Head reeling. Tomorrow's another day!!
Night Night all!
| expatK |
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| 12/01/2009 09:08 |
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I have come into this thread rather late but I am very interested in this subject- can't claim to understand it in all its enormous complexities but have always tried to keep up with what happens there.
Like everything else in life, opinions are often tainted by personal experience. OH's oldest and closest friend is Jewish and he, and his family, feel very, very strongly about it.
But also, some years ago we used to put up foreign students for the university where we lived.. they were all European but once we were asked to put up a Palestinian guy. We were a bit taken aback but agreed to do it. He stayed with us for a year altogether, and we are still in touch. What a lovely, gentle guy he is. He will always have a special place in our hearts... the conditions in which he has to live are appalling. We do tend to forget that most people -everywhere- just want to get on with their daily lives and 'mind their own business'... and he is just the same. The restrictions the Israelis impose on the Palestinians even in times of 'relative' stability are just unfathomable to us. He and his family tried so hard to leave and emigrate to a peaceful country, but it seems that nobody wants them! And this is a peaceful guy, who speaks excellent English, is very presentable, has volunteered with the UN and has a Masters degree in International Business Law from a UK university!!!
Our Jewish friends were incensed when they knew we were accomodating a Palestinian student. They are the most liberal, free-thinking and laid-back people, but this is the one thing we can not see eye-to-eye on. After a 40 year really close friendship, where we have been through thick and thin together, this shocked me to the core. It's beyond sad....
I can't see how it will ever end- particularly when both sides still insist on an eye for an eye...
I so wish the Palestinians had not voted in Hamas- I think a lot of them do, too- but they promised the people so much, and after the corruption of Arafat, they wanted to believe them.....
We really are lucky to live in our countries, it's good to keep reminding ourselves that we mustn't take our freedoms for granted.
| chilla |
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| 12/01/2009 09:28 |
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Good to hear some points mad from personal experience - and unfortunately only seems to compound the belief that this 'war' will run and run.
No matter where you go in the world, most people want the same thing - the chance to have a job, bring their families up in safety, have a home, have friends and family, enjoy the social rituals, a decent stndard of living.
But there will always be people firmly entrenched in their views and for some disappointing reason, they are the ones that either get their mitts on the armaments or rise to the top through either promising the world or military force. Think of all the fruitcakes throughout this century alone and tell me that any one of us couldn't have done better.
| Mollymandy |
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| 12/01/2009 11:29 |
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I think one of the things which is most perplexing is that Israel dropped leaflets saying that the bombing was going to escalate and for civilians to move to a safer place. Seeing as though there is no "safe" place in Gaza, borders are closed, sea routes are blocked - where exactly are normal peace loving peoples to go? Perhaps there should be a mass evacuation for women, children, and old people and then the military factions can just flatten the country.
| cupcake |
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| 12/01/2009 12:25 |
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Can someone explain the West Bank to me? Is that where the Palestinians went, apart from those who found themselves in Gaza, when Israel was created? Or have I got that completely wrong?
| Mollymandy |
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| 12/01/2009 12:51 |
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You should find answers to all questions on the area in the attached Guardian link...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/israelandthepalestinians
| Chickadee |
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| 12/01/2009 13:03 |
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I have just read this thread - I avoided it until now because I was afraid it might be rather simplistic - how wrong can I get!!! Chilla, especially, you've done an amazing job of explaining this horrendously complex situation.
If I could add a couple of thoughts. The area that is now Israel, Gaza and the West Bank has been owned by many different invaders over many thousands of years. It has no single historic ownership, but it has been the homeland to the semitic peoples from whom both Israelis and Palestinians are descended. (I don't think I would take the story of Abraham too literally myself). The fact is that no-one can claim right of ownership except through possession. As others have pointed out, the State of Israel has always been under threat - I rmemeber the 6 day war well, and the reaction of most of the media and the western countries at that time was that Israel had acted justifiably in self defence. The Arab nations took a different view, particularly when Israel refused to surrender the land it had occupied.
Cuppy, the West Bank is territory on the west bank of the river Jordan . To the west, north, and south the West Bank shares borders with state of Israel. To the east, across the Jordan River, is Jordan. Since 1967 most of the West Bank has been under Israeli military occupation.
From 1948 until 1967, the area was under Jordanian rule, but Jordan's claim was never recognized by the international community, with the exception of the United Kingdom. The West Bank was captured by Israel during the Six-Day War in June, 1967. Most of the residents are Arabs, although a large number of Israeli settlements have been built in the region since 1967. I believe it has a degree of autonomy, apart form East Jerusalem, which was anenexed into Israel.
One factor in all this which has not been mentioned in relation to the US is the importance of Jewish Americans demographically and economically. US politicians are constrained not only because of the "Born again christian" lobby, but also because there are over 6 million Jews in the United States - possibly as much as a third of the world's Jewish population. Although only a small percentage of the total US population, they are politically and economically a very pwoerful force.
Finally there are different parties in Israel. Yitzak Rabin was the leader assassinated in 1995, I think, not long after he had agreed the Oslo Accords and met Yasser Arafat.He was murdered by a right wing Israeli who saw his moves towards peace as dangerous.
Gosh, sorry - I have gone on rather a lot...
| cupcake |
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| 12/01/2009 13:16 |
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Thanks! Every little helps!!
| issi |
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| 12/01/2009 16:54 |
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Just a small point - Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East. This is important because where tyrants rule you see such poor countries and living standards.
| cupcake |
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| 12/01/2009 16:56 |
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yes. I see your point. I think it is that Palestine would be a poor country with terrible living standards even if Israel were nowhere near them, because of their rulers.
Have I understood correctly?
| chattycathy |
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| 12/01/2009 17:25 |
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Do you work for Tesco Cuppy!lol!
| cupcake |
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| 12/01/2009 17:44 |
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Do Tesco have stores in Palestine and Israel Cathy???
| chilla |
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| 12/01/2009 19:38 |
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Sad anorak fact person here - the UN world food programme needs another $9 million to feed people in Gaza since the escalation in the fighting.
I don't know how porous the border is with Egypt, but the Palestinians are not manufacturing those rockets by themselve. Therefore one would presume that it is possible for some of the Palestinians to be able to exit, though of course they would be leaving with nothing and dependent on charity of the new host nation.
| Chickadee |
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| 12/01/2009 20:10 |
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As I understand it, Chilla, the purpose of the tunnels between Gaza and Egypt is to enable weapons to be brought in. Presumably they can't be used to evacuate the area because it would take too long, not be safe for children or the frail,not be acceptable to Egypt (who presumably don't want Palestinian refugees) and would prevent the tunnels being used for their primary purpose, the importation of weapons.
As Mayday has pointed out, those who supply arms carry a burden of responsibility.
Like you, I feel there are so many wrongs on both sides over so many years that it is imposssible to say who is right or who is wrong - and apportioning blame achieves nothing. I've just dug out an old book of mine which says "The prospect of further Arab-Israeli wars is a deeply ominous one for world peace as a whole....It may not be irrelevant to recall biblical prophecy and remember tht Armageddon is situated in what is today Israel." That was written in 1982, at a time when there seemed a very real possibility that the war would lead to superpower involvement and nuclear warfare.
The situation has evolved differently from that forecast, but we are all involved in it because it has fuelled the tensions between the Islamic world and the West and provided a rallying point for terrorism.
| Chickadee |
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| 12/01/2009 20:13 |
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As I understand it, Chilla, the purpose of the tunnels between Gaza and Egypt is to enable weapons to be brought in. Presumably they can't be used to evacuate the area because it would take too long, not be safe for children or the frail,not be acceptable to Egypt (who presumably don't want Palestinian refugees) and would prevent the tunnels being used for their primary purpose, the importation of weapons.
As Mayday has pointed out, those who supply arms carry a heavy responsibility.
Like you, I feel there are so many wrongs on both sides over so many years that it is imposssible to say who is right or who is wrong - and apportioning blame achieves nothing. I've just dug out an old book of mine which says "The prospect of further Arab-Israeli wars is a deeply ominous one for world peace as a whole....It may not be irrelevant to recall biblical prophecy and remember tht Armageddon is situated in what is today Israel." That was written in 1982, at a time when there seemed a very real possibility that the war would lead to superpower involvement and nuclear warfare.
The situation has evolved differently from that forecast, but we are all involved in it because it has fuelled the tensions between the Islamic world and the West and provided a rallying point for terrorism. There can be no doubt that a great wrong was done to the Palestinian people, but because Europe was so wrapped up in its own post war turmoil, the US was entirely focused on the Cold War and very anti anything it saw as smacking of colonialism, the situation was left to fester until it has become apparently beyond healing unless there can be a much greater degree of trust and good will than at present.
| cupcake |
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| 12/01/2009 21:19 |
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This is all very heavy stuff. Doesn't bode well for any of us really does it.
| Mayday |
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| 12/01/2009 22:31 |
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Hi Chick. Thanks for giving more detail than I was able to put into a post!!Yatzik Rabin's assasination was one of the instances of when a peace treaty is almost fixed.....an extremist (from either side) will come along and commit an atrocity. Basically the extremists do not want peace!Because neither side will accept the existance of the other.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the importance of Jerusalem to the Muslims.One of their holiest miracles(when Mohammed was taken up to Heaven)took place at 'The Dome of The Rock'So they have as much claim to some presence there as the Jews and the Christions.
| BEL |
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| 12/01/2009 23:41 |
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The Muslims do have a presence on 'the Dome of the Rock' they have the Al-Aqsa Mosque on the Temple Mount where it is belived Abraham nearly sacrificed Isaac....Don't mention Rocks,whether in the East or West (northern rock) cause problems!!!!
| BEL |
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| 13/01/2009 11:56 |
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Tesco was started by a Jewish family,the heiress Shirley Porter was well known in Westminster!!!!!John Porter had many interests in Israel,including food but cannot remember ever seeing a Tesco store,maybe under another name?Have not been over there since the 90s.
| Chickadee |
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| 13/01/2009 12:49 |
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Hmm...not sure Shirley Porter is a great advert for Judaism!!!
Cuppy, it's a terrible situation, but not a hopeless one. There is much good work going on - people like Daniel Barenboim and his work with musicians on both sides - see his speech on this link http://www.danielbarenboim.com/journal_two_peoples.htm
| Mollymandy |
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| 13/01/2009 12:51 |
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At least she made me look up what Gerrymandering meant... naughty lady..
| BEL |
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| 13/01/2009 17:53 |
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Mollymandy,you got it in one!!!!Shirley Porter did so much damage in Westminster,sold all the council houses off..we nurses loved her!!!
| BEL |
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| 13/01/2009 17:59 |
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Agree Daniel Barenboim was brilliant with the Palestinian/Israeli youth orchestra,and was very unpopular with both sides,very sad,lovely man.Need more like him.
| cupcake |
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| 13/01/2009 18:30 |
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Have looked up gerrymandering...I'd never heard of it but now.....well, I DO understand.
I have learnt so much from this thread. Thanks all of you!
| cupcake |
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| 14/01/2009 16:58 |
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I read something today that suggested there was celebrating on the streets of Gaza when the Twin Towers were destroyed.
Isd that true?
| Mayday |
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| 14/01/2009 18:32 |
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I don't know Cuppy. But remember the hugely strong armaments of the Jews(from which the Palestinians have suffered more than once) are supported and supplied by the Americans. So you can see their first re-action would be to celebrate. Also there are the extremists who will whip up a crowd whenever there is an excuse.
I hasten to add I am guessing but just putting forward possibilities.
| expatK |
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| 01/02/2009 16:43 |
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It was reported on the BBC news website today that 2 rockets had been fired into Israel-over night, I think. The Israeli Prime Minister said he was going to retaliate in a "disproportionate" manner....
By the way,I distinctly remember our Palestinian friend telling us was that when he heard about the Twin Towers, he sat down, put his head in his hands and cried.......
I think this has been an absolutely brilliant thread- thanks to everyone.
| cupcake |
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| 01/02/2009 17:21 |
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The point is, I think, that there is right and wrong on both sides and you cannot possibly genralise about individuals..as you cannot in any given circumstance.
Wherever there are those who, for whatever reason, resort to violent means, there will always be, on the opposite side, those who are pacifists and would weep at any loss of life.
Two sides to every story.
For me this has been such an informative and interesting thread.
| Suee |
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| 01/02/2009 21:41 |
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I've just read this thread and will read it again,some things I knew others not.A very interesting thread.I also think this problem will go on for years and feel for both sides,suee xxx
| Mayday |
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| 01/02/2009 23:18 |
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Re: I don't fully understand the Israel/Palestine 'problem'....
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Did any of you see Rageh Omaar's piece tonight 'History of Christianity'....one of a series by different presenters. It was an excellent piece and gave insight into the background of the great divide between the Christian/Judeo world and the Muslim world. Not un-related to the crisis in Israel/Gaza. He went right back to The Crusades. An inglorious episode in Christianity and leaving the Muslims encapsulating Crusades/Colonialism/occupation/oppression...more or less. It all got confused in their belief and that is one of the reasons they cannot find it easy to tolerate all that that represents.(Mainly 'The West') They also include Judeaism in the mix. It is hard to put it all over as he did. You might be able to find the piece online on Channel 4.
When he gave the facts about the crusades it made me ashamed to profess Christianity! The horrendous things that have gone on in the name of religion! Still do of course! I have to keep separating religion from 'Faith' ....two different things.
| Mayday |
| (member) |
| 02/02/2009 16:04 |
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Re: I don't fully understand the Israel/Palestine 'problem'....
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Just pushing this up as perhaps might be interesting to other members?