| Jane_09 |
| (member) |
| 06/01/2009 11:31 |
TAXPAYERS to PAY for pitches for gypsies alternative lifestyle!!!
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The Government has issued a decree to local Councils to provide more caravan pitches for gypsies!! This means that the tax payer will end up having to pay for caravans sites for these people and all of the facilities that go with it!!
I don't think it's fair that we should me made to pay for caravan sites for these people. Why can't they pay for their own sites? They've chosen an alternative lifestyle, so why should we have to pay for it? I thought they were supposed to be 'travellers' anyway!
What do you think?
| Loo |
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| 06/01/2009 11:38 |
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Re: TAXPAYERS to PAY for pitches for gypsies alternative lifestyle!!!
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They are paying taxes through the VAT system, in shops and petrol stations.
Loo
| Glitterqueen |
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| 06/01/2009 11:42 |
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Re: TAXPAYERS to PAY for pitches for gypsies alternative lifestyle!!!
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I thought local councils had to do this already.
| annemari |
| (member) |
| 06/01/2009 11:44 |
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I quite agree with you Jane,in as much as it doen't matter who you are,if you have chosen a particular lifestyle,then don't expect others to pick up the 'tab'
However,there is a difference between Gypsies and Travellers. As in the norm,Gypsies will find an employment to suit themselves and their needs,i.e.working on the land,labouring for farmers or the such like etc whereas Travellers take their work around with them,as in the fairgrounds owners/workers. Travellers do have to pay for what they use plus have Certificates for the use of the ground they are on and are also stringently monitored by the Health and Safety Department,all of which they have to pay for. It is for this reason that some of the prices that are charged for rides etc seem extremely high.
| Glitterqueen |
| (member) |
| 06/01/2009 11:46 |
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Re: TAXPAYERS to PAY for pitches for gypsies alternative lifestyle!!!
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Quote:
They are paying taxes through the VAT system, in shops and petrol stations.
Loo
If that was the only way we paid then I would be very happy. What about education, health, and other public services?
| chilla |
| (member) |
| 06/01/2009 11:57 |
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Re: TAXPAYERS to PAY for pitches for gypsies alternative lifestyle!!!
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Hmmm, had some 'travellers' park round the corner at our works in Widnes. One of the firms opposite them's night men refused to come in because he was too scared. A firm that does some sub-contrating for me were opposite them and had trailer lights stolen as the drivers got out to open the gates, along with said'travellers' trying to get the drivers to sell them just about anything. The place was an absolute disgrace - it's their choice to live a mobile lifestyle, so don't tell me that they don't have facilities. The police mostly wouldn't come out. They may pay VAT on products, but I'd be very interested to know what tax they pay in terms of 'council tax' as they benefit from the same services in terms of lighting, fire brigade. I suspect that a thorough inland revenue investigation would demonstrate distinct discrepancies. NIC payments for the hospital treatments they receive. I'm sure capital Gains Tax is regularly paid as well.
I usually try to find something nice to say about people but these lot intimidate, profit from others hard decent labour, use violence and then moan about being racially abused. Tough. Loathe them.
| Jane_09 |
| (member) |
| 06/01/2009 11:59 |
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Re: TAXPAYERS to PAY for pitches for gypsies alternative lifestyle!!!
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Good morning ladies, I believe that those who are working do pay taxes. Even so, I don’t think it is a good use of public funds to subsidise these people's lifestyle when their campsites create mess and foster petty crime.
As I understand it there are going to be more than 40 new and refurbished Gypsy and Traveller sites across England under a new £21m scheme!! I think it's the governments way of getting round the housing shortage!
Not in my back yard thank you!
| Mollymandy |
| (member) |
| 06/01/2009 12:34 |
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Re: TAXPAYERS to PAY for pitches for gypsies alternative lifestyle!!!
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I have to admit that there are odd gypsy encampments which leave a lot to be desired: there are, however, many that are not and are well run and encompass decent folk.
Seem to remember that someone who should be nameless sent gypsies to concentration camps in the 1930s.
My daughter teaches in a school in Cambridgeshire which has a fairly strong contingent of traveller's children: for the most part they are sweet kids. The odd bad apple, but that happens in all walks of society.
Sorry Jane, but I really am not a great fan of nimbyism: "these" people (along with immigrants) have to go somewhere - at least they are looking after themselves rather than taking up social housing. Most are not eligible for benefits and, as Loo has said, they do pay indirect taxes.
| bluebella |
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| 06/01/2009 12:49 |
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Re: TAXPAYERS to PAY for pitches for gypsies alternative lifestyle!!!
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Mollymandy,
I know what you mean about "not in my backyard" but trust me, the ones near us in Essex - you would NOT want them living near you.
I know there are a lot that get on with their lives and are no trouble to anyone, there was a camp like that where I used to live and you wouldn't have even known they were there.
But the ones I am talking about is the biggest illegal camp in the UK. It has cost us millions for the council to get them moved on, but each time they use their legal aid and the eviction gets postponed.
The poor people that live near them are in despair. I could go on but I won't and what really bothers me is that some while ago they bought a field very close to me. It is greenbelt land and they are not allowed to build on it, but that didn't stop them setting up the ilegal camp they're on now.
Bluebella
| Mollymandy |
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| 06/01/2009 12:53 |
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Bluebella - I really do sympathise as daughter lives near Cottenham in Cambridgeshire which also has a similar problem to those near Witham etc in Essex.
However, both of these sites are illegal ones where travellers have either bought the land themselves and illegally developed it or just squatted.
Perhaps if the Government provide well regulated and more suitably sited sites (sorry), these big, no go area, sites would not proliferate.
It was more the tone in which the question was posed which grated : as though "these" people were a sub-species.
| Jane_09 |
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| 06/01/2009 12:54 |
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Re: TAXPAYERS to PAY for pitches for gypsies alternative lifestyle!!!
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Mollymandy, I'm sure gypsies are 'normal' people just as we are. I don't necessarily have issues with gypsies as people, it is the government policy concerning the forced sale of land that I have particular issue with. The Government can force the sale of land at reduced rates. This means that land owners or people with big gardens could be faced with the compulsory purchase of their land at a knock down price!! Yes, a knock down price! The government are allowed to do this!
Do you have a large garden MollyMandy
| Mollymandy |
| (member) |
| 06/01/2009 12:58 |
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Re: TAXPAYERS to PAY for pitches for gypsies alternative lifestyle!!!
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Nope have an average garden, and also don't have a problem with travellers in this part of ~Shropshire.
I did, however, move from Cambridgeshire where I did have a few acres.
If the control of site location were given to local Government I am pretty sure they would be a little more specific in their siting and hardly likely to force any middle class homeowner to sell bits of their back gardens.
| bluebella |
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| 06/01/2009 13:00 |
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Mollymandy - yes it is a problem all over the UK.
Essex council have been told to give them more sites but we already have the most in the UK - and where do they expect them to find this land?
It's funny that John Prescot was all for giving them more sites, and then when some camped near him, they were removed sharpish for "security" reasons.
Bluebella
| issi |
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| 06/01/2009 13:02 |
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If the council sets up these camps then they should be made to live, anonymously, next to them at least for a month or two after they are up and running. There is nothing like first-hand experience to clear up any misunderstandings.
| Mollymandy |
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| 06/01/2009 13:07 |
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Re: TAXPAYERS to PAY for pitches for gypsies alternative lifestyle!!!
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I can remember that when one or two new age families started to move on some land near to us in Suffolk, that the local farmer sprayed the field with slurry which achieved the necessary effect.
There were a family of travellers (or gypsies) on the roadside near here before Christmas (for about a month): when they left (without being moved forcibly), there was not a speck of rubbish left anywhere.
As with all minority groups, it is always easy to generalise. There is good and bad in all and I am sorry to get into rant mood, but truly loathe over generalisations and prejudice.
| chilla |
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| 06/01/2009 13:15 |
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Re: TAXPAYERS to PAY for pitches for gypsies alternative lifestyle!!!
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As i said I've had one near Widnes, which was just horrific and a 3 day settlement 200 yards down the road from where i work in Salford. Both of them were left in a filthy condition and the one in Widnes, they were very unpleasant people.
maybe there are some that leave the place nice and are very friendly and don't intimidate. But I've not encountered any, so i draw on my first-hand experience.
| cupcake |
| (member) |
| 06/01/2009 13:18 |
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Quote:
there was not a speck of rubbish left anywhere.
Here on the south coast we have a beautiful area overlooking the sea, it is public land, used by walkers, picnickers etc. It is also regualrly used by travellers who intimidate and vitually cause the area to be out of use for anyone else. They aslo trawl the streets knocking on doors and trying to 'encourage' you to have your drive blockpaved or your roof redone. I've had them knock on my door and they do not like taking no thank you for an answer. When eventually forcibly moved on they always and without fail, leave the area in a truly disgusting state. We see council workers dressed in all their protective gear having to go in and clean the area before the public can be allowed back onto the land.
| Jane_09 |
| (member) |
| 06/01/2009 13:19 |
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Re: TAXPAYERS to PAY for pitches for gypsies alternative lifestyle!!!
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Sorry ladies, I've just noticed a typo above.
The Department of Communities and Local Government has set regional planners the target of coming up with sites for an extra 4,000 pitches!! (not 40 as stated above!!) Issi, what a good idea! Perhaps Gordon Brown should try this idea out first!
Bluebella, yes funny that JP didn't want them in his back yard isn't it?
MollyMandy, this isn't about generalisations and prejudice!! It's about hardworking, law abiding people being forced to sell their land at knock down prices!! As for a 'minority group' don't forget that this is a lifestyle that they have chosen, it has NOT been forced upon them!!
| Mollymandy |
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| 06/01/2009 13:21 |
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But don't you get these same sort of "no go" areas and filthy unkept properties, streets, etc. on some of the worst sink estates? These nasty people are also benefitting from all your hardworking, law abiding, people's taxes too.
I give up - but perhaps we just have nicer gypsies in Shropshire.
| cupcake |
| (member) |
| 06/01/2009 13:26 |
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That's very provocative mollymandy!
Do you want me to say well, I don't live on a sink estate so I don't care about the state of them?
I don't see that there is any connection between a sink estate and a local beauty spot.
| Mollymandy |
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| 06/01/2009 13:30 |
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Cupcake - wasn't meant to be provocative at all - just throwing a curved ball.
Clearing up rubbish courtesy of the local authority costs council tax payers money - whether it be on a sink estate or at a beauty spot.
| Jane_09 |
| (member) |
| 06/01/2009 13:32 |
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MollyMandy,
Quote:
But don't you get these same sort of "no go" areas and filthy unkept properties, streets, etc. on some of the worst sink estates? These nasty people are also benefitting from all your hardworking, law abiding, people's taxes too.
The trouble is we don't need anymore of this kind of filth anywhere. As Cupcake has indicated, we should be
concerned about these areas too!
| bunnygirl |
| (member) |
| 06/01/2009 13:45 |
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Re: TAXPAYERS to PAY for pitches for gypsies alternative lifestyle!!!
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I would like to know how the same people who moved into an illegal site near us who are claiming legal aid to prevent eviction, claiming their rights to stay as they are on benefits and cannot afford to move are the same people who go into the local BMW dealership and buy top of the range BMW's for cash and have also been reported as buying a house for £350,000 cash.
Myself and OH have worked hard all our lives and paid plenty in tax and NI over the years (especially OH) and we could not do this. The one time we needed help from the government when OH was made redundant without warning we were given £40.00 a week to live on with a mortgage and 2 small children. Thankfully the situation resolved itself quite quickly.
My point is that I do not begrudge anyone government financial help when they have paid their dues like everyone else or through no fault of their own, but I do not like the way travellers want everything their own way claiming their human rights. The camp Bluebella talks about does not even have a postman as they are too frighten to deliver and even the police deem it a no go area. There have also been shooting incidents there and life is hell for the poor residents who back onto this illegal site- what about their human rights?
Sorry- I don't usually post on contraversial subjects on here and I do not wish to tar all the travellers with the same brush, but as usual it is a proportion of this part of society that put themselves outside the law but want all the benefits of society, that give others a bad name.
Bunnygirl
| Glitterqueen |
| (member) |
| 06/01/2009 14:03 |
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Re: TAXPAYERS to PAY for pitches for gypsies alternative lifestyle!!!
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Quote:
There were a family of travellers (or gypsies) on the roadside near here before Christmas (for about a month): when they left (without being moved forcibly), there was not a speck of rubbish left anywhere.
Rather different to our local site which houses over 1000 people illegally.
| oliveoil |
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| 06/01/2009 14:22 |
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bunny to be honest i would be very upset,i think glitterqueen was very lucky,any sites i have driven past have always looked a mess rubbish,dogs running all over the place and not under control,not to metion if you wanted to sell or rent your house i think it would be very hard.
i could go on and on but i wont,as i would never stop.
bunny i wish you well and hope the new year is good to you
love olive oil
| dizeeblonde |
| (member) |
| 06/01/2009 14:23 |
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A very difficult issue I think, and not easy to know what the answer is. I am another who has to think very carefully as I am also mindful Hitler persecuted this section of society.
We too have problems with groups of travellers in our area from time to time, and yes there is rising crime at these times, and it makes me irate. However I do try to remember making sweeping generalisations is very dangerous.
reading this I recalled that as a child I used to be taken to a large childrens Christmas party each year at our local conservative club by my parents, and used to play happily with another little girl that I looked forward to seeing each year. As I got older I was told that she was from a travelling family, her father operated a funfair, and had some of the rides. This man was very respected, kind and generous. So what I am trying to say is not all of this group of people are tax dodging anti- social oafs.
There is a problem as to where they site themselves, and perhaps this is the answer. for those who don't feel it is, what do you suggest?
To suggest that people are not free to opt for this lifestyle does not sit well with me, that would border on facism. One of the things I value about my country is my right to choose my lifestyle.
The big question really is the funding, but surely this is only the same as providing funds for council houses to be built?
I can se an advantadge in these sites being set up if they are properly regulated, it could help to cut down on benefit fraud tax evasion etc, as maybe there would be records registers etc.
I think we also need to remember there is a massive amount of tax evasion that is done by very affluent business men as well, and that is no less a crime, just not always as obvious.
I agree MollyMandy that there is the same issue of a dirty filthy sink estate, as in a place of beauty. For the decent law abiding people who have no choice but to live in these areas it must be very disheartening.
Again i would say, does anyone have any alternative ideas as to how to solve this problem?
| Glitterqueen |
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| 06/01/2009 14:33 |
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bunny to be honest i would be very upset,i think glitterqueen was very lucky,
I think you mean Mollymandy was lucky.
Bunnygirl and I live near the same site so I know what she is talking about.
| Mollymandy |
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| 06/01/2009 14:37 |
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An interesting article about a friend of mine who opened my eyes.
http://www.south-norfolk.gov.uk/housing/3446.asp
http://www.blog.travellerstimes.org.uk/2008/11/25/a-rare-honour/
| skippy |
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| 06/01/2009 14:50 |
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No you cant tar everyone with the same brush but having worked for a local authority designing these facilities for travellers - only to find that when the first lot decided to leave they took every bit of plumbing, sanitary appliances and anything else they could rip out away with them it makes you wonder why we bother.
Also a group of travellers turned up near where i live - parked their luxury caravans in the middle of a well used local football ground, strung their washing between the goalposts, put up Gazebo's and luxury garden furniture, drove about in their brand new Mercs and BMW's and Left a mess and stopped the field being used for 3 weeks.
| ChrissiFi |
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| 06/01/2009 14:51 |
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There's a big difference between travellers and genuine gypsies - romany gypsies are I believe a race, travellers have usually made a lifestyle choice to drop out of the normal conventions of civilised living and I don't see why when they've chosen not to earn a living we have to fund their accomodation.
The gypsies we get parked up around here occasionally are usually very clean, polite and tidy and pick up seasonal work wherever they park and when they move on you wouldn't know they'd been there (and probably wouldn't want to live on a glorified camp site although some near here have bought themselves a site and it's kept very neat and tidy) but a lot of the 'new age travellers' (Glastonbury's a few miles away and always attracts quite a number in summer) are a completely different matter - from speaking to farming friends who've had them pitch on their land the mess left behind is terrible and they have no respect for the land or livestock.
| oliveoil |
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| 06/01/2009 14:56 |
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sorry glitterqueen,misread the post,wish you well,
love oliveoil
| chilla |
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| 06/01/2009 15:02 |
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As with any group of people, wether it's religious, ethnic, lifestyle choice,work title, colour, whatever, there's good and bad.
It depends a lot on your first encounter and then if that first encounter is reinforced a second and third time, you end up holding very polarised views.
I'm willing to change my view, when I get a personal experience that conflicts with my current one.
Mollymandy, your friend seems very nice. If she has any success, perhaps she could campaign for a few truckstops as well as there are appalling facilities for my 'travelling' drivers.
| Mollymandy |
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| 06/01/2009 15:07 |
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Know what you mean Chilla - maybe a good business to set up a chain of decent overnight stops (similar to France)... same for travelling stable lads - the accommodation at racecourses is dire...
| chilla |
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| 06/01/2009 15:09 |
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Erm ,no-one wants a truckstop next to them. Unsuprisingly!!! Do you go horse-racing Mollymandy, just wondered since you mentioned racecourses.
| Mollymandy |
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| 06/01/2009 15:13 |
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Love horseracing and worked for a big racing yard in Newmarket a few years ago. The lads there were well paid and well looked after, but not all yards were the same. Racecourse accommodation (even in Newmarket) is awful.
Think there is a good overnighter on the old A11 at Red Lodge - great for 24 hour brekkies!
Oops digressing....
| cupcake |
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| 06/01/2009 15:49 |
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Dizee, my point about not being able to compare a sink estate with a beauty spot is NOT that it's ok for one to be grotty and not the other but that JUST BECAUSE one is grotty doesn't mean to say it's okay for the other to be trashed.
Does that make sense to you? It does to me...but of course I know what I mean!
| Jane_09 |
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| 06/01/2009 15:55 |
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Hello ladies, I pop out and come back only to find the subject has turned to horseracing! How did that happen?
MollyMandy, interesting website and of course there must be some successful, powerful, wonderful people who have come from the gypsy community.
Dizee, the government say that the decision to build 40,00 new sites will save money in the long run as it will cut the cost of £18 million spent annually on trying to evict travellers from illegal sites!! The gypsies will pay rent and council tax on the new legal sites, and in return the authorities will provide rubbish collection, running water, electricity and other services.
Yes, of course gypsies and travellers should be entitled to a roof over their heads just like any other member of society. As I said earlier my main concern is with the government’s new ‘land grab’ policy which means that some people may be forced to sell their land. I have absolutely no issues with the gypsies alternative lifestyle. Just as long as they are decent law abiding individuals and are willing to pay their own way in society, who cares what they do? If people want to opt out of society that's okay with me as long as they can pay for it.
As for where they should site themselves? - My suggestion is that they go and buy their own field and build their own facilities and amenities. If the gypsies want to opt out and live in their own community, I say let them do it, but I don't think we should be expected to pay for their alternative lifestyle. Why should we pay for them? Why should they get such privileged treatment? As somebody else said a lot of these people are quite well off and driving round in BMW’s!! I know people often assume that gypsies are poor, but this doesn’t appear to be the case. They have no mortgage to pay, so it could be that they have more money that most people!! And yes, they should clean up after themselves, just like anybody else!!
| chilla |
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| 06/01/2009 16:04 |
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And they're off.
First from the line is Jane2009, with a determined gallop. Folowing closely is Cupcake, Glitterqueen and Bunnygirl, all trying to catch up and stake their claim. On the left of the field is Mollymandy and Dizzeeblonde leading a concerted attack on the first place. As they come to the final furlong, it's all neck and neck and a photo finish for first place.
Chilla's pulled up and headed off for the haynet and a polo mint.
| Mollymandy |
| (member) |
| 06/01/2009 16:08 |
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Chilla wins by a short head... and disappears into the sunset with the trainer in his big Merc.
| cupcake |
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| 06/01/2009 16:10 |
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cupcake yawns and goes back to cooking her spaghetti bolognese...
| chilla |
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| 06/01/2009 16:14 |
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Cuppy, come back, you've got first past the post. Extra carrots tonight
Molly - any 'phone number for me?????
| Mollymandy |
| (member) |
| 06/01/2009 16:34 |
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Stewards Enquiry....
| chilla |
| (member) |
| 06/01/2009 16:36 |
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Cuppy can put her carrots in her bolognese.
But Molly, please feel free to go and place a bet on the outcome of the photo....